From bgary@cclink.fhcrc.org Wed Aug 3 15:19:58 1994 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) with ESMTP id PAA06930 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 15:19:53 -0700 From: bgary@cclink.fhcrc.org Received: from aphid.fhcrc.org (aphid.fhcrc.org [140.107.42.6]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.7/8.6.4) with SMTP id PAA20670 for ; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 15:19:41 -0700 Received: from cclink.fhcrc.org by aphid.fhcrc.org (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA18096; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 15:20:52 +0800 Received: from cc:Mail by cclink.fhcrc.org id AA775952398; Wed, 03 Aug 94 15:16:49 EST Date: Wed, 03 Aug 94 15:16:49 EST Encoding: 32 Text, 1316 Text, 1329 Text Message-Id: <9407037759.AA775952398@cclink.fhcrc.org> To: Jeff Chan , bgary@cclink.fhcrc.org Subject: Re[2]: NRA-HCI compuserve debate. content-length: 136402 Status: RO I've attached 'my' version (?) as a text file called 'debate4.txt' - it's about 70k, too large to paste into my mail editor. I got the original from the listserver at nra.org It is attached as 'debate0.txt' Bruce ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: NRA-HCI compuserve debate. Author: Jeff Chan at CCLINK Date: 8/3/94 2:48 PM Please email me your versions of the debate & the original & I'll put up in my fpt dor. Thx, -- Jeff Chan Internet: chan@shell.portal.com uucp mail: {apple,claris,pyramid}!shell.portal.com!chan (Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are mine unless otherwise noted.) +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | We should measure progress not by how many laws can | | be passed but by how little governing people need. | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ WWW URL: ftp://ftp.shell.portal.com/pub/chan/index.html ftp: ftp.shell.portal.com: pub/chan: README, INDEX, firearms.faq firearms, liberty mailing lists: majordomo@shell.portal.com: help Author: listproc@gatekeeper.nra.org at CCLINK Date: 8/1/94 11:47 PM Priority: Normal TO: Bruce Gary at FH2 Subject: GET RKBA NRA-HCI-COMPUSERVE-DEBATE (1/7) ------------------------------- Message Contents ------------------------------- Archive RKBA, file nra-hci-compuserve-debate. [The following is the transcript of the "Debate" between NRA and HCI. This took place on CompuServe from 8 to 10pm on July 31st, 1994. This file is available via: WWW from http://www.nra.org anonymous ftp from ftp.nra.org in /pub/ila/nra-hci-compuserve-debate e-mail server: send get rkba nra-hci-compuserve-debate as the body of a message to listproc@NRA.org Craig Peterson.] One moment please... Welcome to Crime Forum+, V. 3B(73) Hello, Craig Last visit: 31-Jul-94 15:13:11 Forum messages: 11942 to 13008 Last message you've read: 11941 Section(s) Selected: All Number of Members in Conference: 67 News Flash: * THE GREAT DEBATE: NRA AND HCI DEBATE GUN CONTROL IN CRIME FORUM! * On Sunday, 31 July at 8 PM (EDT) you can join the Director of Federal Legislation of Handgun Control Inc. and the Executive Director of the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative action in a hard hitting gun control debate. 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Crime Forum+Forum Menu 1 INSTRUCTIONS 2 MESSAGES 3 LIBRARIES (Files) 4 CONFERENCING (67 participating) 5 ANNOUNCEMENTS from sysop 6 MEMBER directory 7 OPTIONS for this forum Enter choice !4 Conference Announcement: CRIME FORUM Conferences WELCOME to the Crime Forum conference area. Tonight we are pleased to have representatives from the NRA and Handgun Control, Inc., as our guests. This is a formal conference. There will be a time for questions after the debate phase; this will be announced, after which you can type "?NRA" or "?HCI" and then to enter the line to ask a question. Please wait until recognized before asking a question. How to get Help and how to Exit a conference room If you use CIM, WinCIM, or MacCIM, click the "Help" function on your menu for Help. Press the Esc key to Exit. If you use any other program, type "/HELP" at the very beginning of a new line for Help. Type "/EXIT" at the very beginning of a new line to Exit. (Don't use the quotation marks. Make sure to type those commands at the very beginning of a new line and press the ENTER key.) Crime Forum+CO Rooms Menu Conference Rooms Available (# users): 1 Formal (68) 2 Informal (0) 3 Casual (0) Enter choice !1 Welcome to room 1, Craig (room) number of users (1)68 Entering Formal room... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Still there, Tanya? (1-4,Bruce Erickson) [/u (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Well, I suspect that Tanya may have a bit more in the capture buffer ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) but it seems to have gotten munged along the way. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) With the balance of her opening time reserved, (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, you have the floor.ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) Gun voilence is on the rise. In 1991, more than 38,000 (1-2,bob walker/hci) Americans were killed with firearms--in homicides, (1-2,bob walker/hci) suicides, and accidents. Since, 1987, the rate for (1-2,bob walker/hci) non-handgun murders has declined by 11 percent, while (1-2,bob walker/hci) the rate of handgun homicides increased by 52 percent. (1-2,bob walker/hci) Measures like the Brady Law and the recently passed (1-2,bob walker/hci) assault weapons ban are reasonable responses to the (1-2,bob walker/hci) growing epidemic of gun violence. The debate is not (1-2,bob walker/hci) about banning guns, it's about reasonable,responsible (1-2,bob walker/hci) measures that can save lives. ga. (1-51,RICHARD LOARIE) ?HCI (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) we now move to our panel of questioners ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana Zielinski and Laura Quarantiello ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) whom many of you will know from this forum ... (1-59,Don B. Cely) ?HCI (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana and Laura both have expertise on second amendment and (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) gun control issues and ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) among them have ten questions to ask each side ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) each question will begin with one side ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) for a brief answer, with a response by the other and then a final (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) rebuttal from the first. Then on to the next question ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) After that series, the floor will be open ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) for questions at large ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) that's when I'll start recording who is where in the "queue" (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana, with the first question.ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Jon, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I just spoke with Tanya Metaksa, who will be right back online in (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) a moment with her opening statement. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Ah, okay. We'll wait for that. ... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) In the meantime, I'd like to ask Mr. Walker what his (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Jon, should I ask a general question in the meantime? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana, go ahead with your first question to Bob (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Bob, What is HCI's stance... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) on the meaning of the second amendment of the U.S. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Constitution? (1-1,Bill Stiers) Hello. I was temporarily disconnected. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Bob (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Jon, I believe Tanya is back with us. (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI believes in the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (1-2,bob walker/hci) given it by the federal courts i.e. that the right to bear (1-2,bob walker/hci) arms is in connection with a well-regulated militia. ga (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) Yes. I am. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Did you catch Bob's answer just now, Tanya? ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) perhaps you can answer his point and we can roll up this (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) question before you try your opneing again.ga (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) I didn't get the question. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Bob, What is HCI's stance... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) on the meaning of the second amendment of the U.S. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Constitution? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) And Bob's answer: (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI believes in the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) E(1-2,bob walker/hci) given it by the federal courts i.e. that the right to bear (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-2,bob walker/hci) arms is in connection with a well-regulated militia. ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Tanya. (1-71,Harold Fisher) [D (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (do feel free to hit as you type your answer ... (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) In 1990, the Supreme Court confirmed in U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, that the right to keep and bear arms, like rights protected by (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) the First, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments, is an individual right (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) held by "the people," which the court defines as all "persons who are part of a national community." (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) a lot of short lines works better than one long burst) (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (hit "ga" when done) (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, last rebuttal?ga (1-50,ken wetherall) bob, you there? (1-2,bob walker/hci) The Court's interpretation of the second Amendment has (1-2,bob walker/hci) never resulted in the overturning of any gun laws. The (1-2,bob walker/hci) right is clearly connected to the requirements of a ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ Author: listproc@gatekeeper.nra.org at CCLINK Date: 8/1/94 11:47 PM Priority: Normal TO: Bruce Gary at FH2 Subject: GET RKBA NRA-HCI-COMPUSERVE-DEBATE (2/7) ------------------------------- Message Contents ------------------------------- Archive RKBA, file nra-hci-compuserve-debate. Part 2/7, total size 10176 bytes: ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ (1-2,bob walker/hci) well-regulated militia. ga (1-51,RICHARD LOARIE) ?HCI (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, before we move to the next question ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya still has the rest of her opening statement. ga, Tanya. (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) On Wed., the House of Reps. will take up the crime bill. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya, we've still only received one line. (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) This bill includes billions of dollars in social spending which includes midnight basketball, dance classes, and fingerpainting for (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) drug addicts and HIV positive people. (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) This bill should be defeated in both the House and the Senate. (1-68,Paul S./PA) Should, but probably won't be! (1-91,John Aiello) why is HCI and others so afraid of common, law abiding citizens having the right to (1-91,John Aiello) bear arms without some quaisi official "militia" organization overseeing their activities. (1-91,John Aiello) No other rights in the Constition provide for an overseeing organization to make the (1-91,John Aiello) right sanctioned. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) All done, Tanya? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) In fact, my readout says that Tanya has disappeared again ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) conspiracy theorists will no doubt find that significant ... (1-50,Joseph P Southard) Someone talk to me. (1-9,Timothy P. Butler) Aaaaarrrgh!!!!! (1-7,Larry Anderson) Jon: Why don't you just open the floor to questions and get this "conference" moving? With all respect... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ... (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI did not write the 2nd Amendment. It is what the (1-2,bob walker/hci) court's say it is. We do not support a ban on handguns, (1-2,bob walker/hci) we simlply support measures that are designed to reduce (1-2,bob walker/hci) gun violence. ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Larry-> It's less the questions than the pace of answers that is the problem ... (1-37,David Luther) I second that Timothy (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) as experienced as any of us is this is a new medium ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) having more questions doesn't do much to solve the problem ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) of lacking the NRA rep! ... (1-43,Tom) Bob, how is keeping weapons from law-abiding citizens (1-43,Tom) goung to stop crime? (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) That's the 2nd time I've been cut-off. I was disconnected by the "host", and apologize for the delay. (1-7,Larry Anderson) <> True, so why not make some adjustments in what you planned? It's been 34 minutes (1-7,Larry Anderson) and nothing is happening. (1-47,Steve Hunnell) Bob: It's a good thing HCI didn't write the 2d Amendment, we'd be (1-47,Steve Hunnell) in some other type of dictatorship by now! (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Larry and all-> Let's get through one more question now that Tanya is back ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) and see how the pace goes. We'll open up to the floor ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) by 8:47 no matter what ... (1-7,Larry Anderson) ?HCI (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) I have 8:37 (ET) on my (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) clock right now. ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) In the meantime, Laura, ga with the next question ... (1-50,Joseph P Southard) Handgun Control Inc are left wing fascists whose ultimate goal is to (1-15,Laura Quarantiello/) Good evening! Bob, what does the Brady Bill do? What are the problems with the Bill and any possible benefits from it? ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI is fighting to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, (1-2,bob walker/hci) children and other prohibited purchasers, not out of the (1-2,bob walker/hci) hands of law-abiding citizens. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) and I'd like to ask those on the floor to wait 'til the queue opens for questions. (1-50,Joseph P Southard) disarm America and control us as slaves to the state (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) I have to ask why Hangun Control or anyone else espousing gun control of any kind expects "criminals" (by definition (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) people who break the law) to respect a law outlawing possession of guns when the criminal is willing to break a much (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) greater law, such as murder or armed robbery. I suggest stiffer penalties for such crimes. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (Please, ga, Bob ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) and everyone else let him speak!) (1-2,bob walker/hci) The Brady law has two purposes. First to ensure that (1-2,bob walker/hci) anyone who buys a handgun from a gun store is legally (1-2,bob walker/hci) entitled to own a handgun. Second to establish a waiting (1-2,bob walker/hci) period or 'cooling off' period. (1-2,bob walker/hci) ga (1-37,David Luther) Thankyou Joseph. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya, response?ga (1-50,Joseph P Southard) Handgun Control Inc are left wing fascists whose ultimate goal is to (1-29,Stephen J. Cotton) ?HCI... ga (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) Sarah Brady has already stated that waiting periods do nothing to reduce crimes of passion, so "cooling off" is no long a issue, in (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) HCI's mind, or didn't Bob know? (1-42,Jerry J. Young) it is my opinion that gun toting rightists have some kind of (1-42,Jerry J. Young) penis envy copulated with an inadequicy with their sexual (1-42,Jerry J. Young) life. the gun seems to represent an extension of their (most (1-42,Jerry J. Young) likely) underdeveloped penis!!! (1-1,Charles A. Fulleton) How about ensuring the right of protecting our families? (1-1,Charles A. Fulleton) What does a cooling off period do for a person who (1-1,Charles A. Fulleton) NEEDS immediate protection? The police will not provide (1-1,Charles A. Fulleton) protection, they will however investigate your homicide. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, final response? ga (1-64,Tim Myers) Bob, when FBI stats show less than 1% of crimes with guns are commited with (1-64,Tim Myers) "assualt weapons" HCI comtinues to claim that they are a leading cause of death (1-64,Tim Myers) from guns. (1-2,bob walker/hci) Sarah Brady has always said that waiting periods serve as (1-2,bob walker/hci) a cooling off period. On one occasion she was misquoted (1-2,bob walker/hci) and ever since then you have been misquoting her. ga (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) For those of you who don't know I have absolutely no penis envy, being a mother and a grandmother. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Hmm, that wasn't on our list of questions, but I suppose (1-58,MARCO L. FORCONE) Right on Tanya! (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) it's now on record. Alana, next question?ga (1-13,gary fox) Bob, do you and HCI have an implicit trust in government? (1-2,bob walker/hci) FBI statistics do not show that less than 1 percent of (1-2,bob walker/hci) crimes are committed with assault weapons. Over the last (1-2,bob walker/hci) seven years, 8 percent of guns traced to crime were (1-2,bob walker/hci) assault weapons. ga. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Proponents of stricter gun control laws often point to Britain's... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (everyone else: the floor will be open in several minutes for questions) (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) lower violent crime rate. Opponents point to Switzerland.... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) What is each of your organization's views on the... (1-40,Pat Panther) Bob, gun traces are biased, even ATF admits that. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) underlying causes of gun violence, and does that view explain... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) the difference between crime rates in the US and other countries? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Tanya. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, take it first, then Tanya. ga (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) About "traces" -- both BATF and the Congressional Resaearch Service have stated that there is no way to determine if guns "traced" (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) are actually those used in crimes. The America and other countries comparison is a ruse -- many European countries with... (1-43,Tom) Bob, I don't disagree with the Brady Bill, as intended, what (1-43,Tom) I would like to know is why are all the import weapons (1-43,Tom) being banned now ( I own several on the list) these are (1-43,Tom) NOT handguns, these weapons are collector items, razors (1-43,Tom) are used in violent crimes also, do we ban Bics? (1-29,Stephen J. Cotton) ?HCI (1-83,Brian J Brownsberge) Please folks, let the people talk. (1-29,Stephen J. Cotton) It's 8:47 by my watch (1-29,Stephen J. Cotton) here in NJ (1-7,Larry Anderson) ?HCI (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) gun laws less restrictive than parts of the U.S. have crime rates lower than, or as low, as the European countries that have severe (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) restrictions on gun rights.' (1-21,RICHARD LOARIE) ?HC?HCI (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Is that all, Tanya? (1-20,Joseph Gillis) ?HCI (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, ga. (1-77,john halligan) BYE (1-21,RICHARD LOARIE) HI (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) ?HCI (1-7,Larry Anderson) ?HCI (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, you there?ga (1-29,Stephen J. Cotton) Good bye (1-2,bob walker/hci) I'm back on. (1-41,Dave Hardy) W/1-2 minutes between responses, my online expense (1-41,Dave Hardy) ammo is pretty well shot by now. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Do you have a response to Tanya?ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) There is no other country in the world that suffers more (1-2,bob walker/hci) from gun violence than the US, except for nations plagued (1-2,bob walker/hci) by civil war. (1-55,Eugene Bernstein) ?HCI (1-76,Christopher Brown) ?hci (1-7,Larry Anderson) Jon: It's 8:47 ?HCI (1-89,Craig) Does that prove something? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, let's move on to the next phase ... (1-7,Larry Anderson) ?HCI (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) ?hci (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) before we do, let me try to lay out how we'll do it ... (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) ?HCI (1-68,Paul S./PA/NRA) There is also no other country like the USA. No other (1-68,Paul S./PA/NRA) country has a Bill of Rights that gives protections to "The (1-68,Paul S./PA/NRA) People" (1-8,Kenneth L. Andrews) too slow bye (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) we've got around 80 people here simultaneously right now ... (1-26,Jim Switz) ?HCI (1-2,bob walker/hci) The level of gun violence in our society is closely linked ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ Author: listproc@gatekeeper.nra.org at CCLINK Date: 8/1/94 11:47 PM Priority: Normal TO: Bruce Gary at FH2 Subject: GET RKBA NRA-HCI-COMPUSERVE-DEBATE (3/7) ------------------------------- Message Contents ------------------------------- Archive RKBA, file nra-hci-compuserve-debate. Part 3/7, total size 10124 bytes: ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ (1-2,bob walker/hci) to the ease with which criminals and juveniles can obtain (1-2,bob walker/hci) firearms. (1-39,WRB\VAHV) NRA? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) so we do have to keep questions one after the other. ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) If you've got a quesiton, type ?NRA or ?HCI to get into the queue. The line is open now. (1-71,Harold Fisher) and the ease that criminals keep getting out of prison (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) ?HCI ?HCI (1-21,RICHARD LOARIE) ?HCI (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) ?HCI (1-25,Joseph E. Hart) ? HCI (1-39,WRB\VAHV) ?NRA (1-26,Jim Switz) ?HCI (1-83,Brian J Brownsberge) ?HCI (1-13,gary fox) ?hci (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) ?HCI (1-91,John Aiello) ?hci (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, the first ten spots are now filled ... (1-82,John B.) ?HCI (1-12,DON BLACKBURN) This is about the worst format I have ever seen for a discussion. There is no formality of listen and respond. (1-20,Joseph Gillis) ?HCI (1-87,Ron Pelfrey) What about the 40's 50's and 60's..it was easier to get a gun then and there was le (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Please wait until you get the (1-60,Larry Harbison) ?HCI (1-64,Tim Myers) ?HCI Your stats are wrong but given 8% is that cause to (1-64,Tim Myers) outlaw weapons enjoyed by millions? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga from me before you ... (1-87,Ron Pelfrey) less crime. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) actually enter your question. (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI supports stiffer sentencing of criminals, more police (1-2,bob walker/hci) on the street and other anti-cirime measures, but we also (1-2,bob walker/hci) see a need to keep criminals from getting guns. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Please try to keep your questions brief, as (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) well as individual lines so we're not all left hanging in suspense. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Cathy Geisthardt, ga (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-What would you say to the Jews who surrended their firearms prior to being rounded up & marched to death camps?ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) What would you say to the 13,000 Americans who are (1-2,bob walker/hci) killed every year with handguns? (1-91,John Aiello) ? HCI What is your defination of an assault weapon? (1-26,Jim Switz) 1) What sense does a "cooling off" provision have to someone who already (1-26,Jim Switz) owns 1 or more guns? In Calif., I have to wait up to *16* days to pick (1-26,Jim Switz) up a firearm, and I own several. All of them can kill. I'm "cooled off" (1-67,Dominick) That's not an answer Bob!!! (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-Stop committing suicides & fighting drug wars. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (please don't forget the "ga") (1-7,Larry Anderson) Bob: That's not answering Cathy's question!!! (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya, anything to add? ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (please, PLEASE, let's not make this a free-for-all) (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) ga (1-64,Tim Myers) HCI? HCI was also against class III weapons and successfully outlawed them even (1-64,Tim Myers) though no one was ever illegally killed by one. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) For years, NRA has been on record supporting stiffer sentences for criminals, tougher prosection, less parole, etc.., and we have (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) yet to see any activity on these issues by HCI. How much did HCI spend in support of "3strikes, you're out" in Wash... (1-13,gary fox) ?HCI (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) State in 1992? Or 1993? (1-2,bob walker/hci) I can cite you any number of incidents where individuals (1-2,bob walker/hci) have murdered someone else very soon after buying a (1-2,bob walker/hci) firearm. (1-7,Larry Anderson) Sorry, Jon, but the free-for-all is more entertaining and thought-provoking then the debacle of the past hour (1-20,Joseph Gillis) There is absolutely no way in the world to keep criminals from getting guns. (1-72,Wayne Fugitt) Has HCI researched the benefit of our 20,000 plus (1-72,Wayne Fugitt) Gun LAWS, and what they have done to control CRIME, (1-72,Wayne Fugitt) especially in Washington, DC ? (done) ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) Why is the NRA opposing the crime bill, when it contains (1-2,bob walker/hci) "3 Strikes and You're Out."? (1-8,Rolf Nelson) If safty is the issue, what would HCI say about Ben Franklins quote, "Those that would (1-8,Rolf Nelson) sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safty deserve neither"? (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. ga (1-82,John B.) Someone murdered Nicole Simpson without a gun, and the (1-82,John B.) police could not have prevented it. (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Go Cathy! (1-53,Scott Olson) Maybe because it contains so much other idiocy! (1-49,John V. Urbancic) Bob, I guess we all can see your bias towards the jewish state. (1-94,KEITH A. ENGSTROM) bob you know why as well as the rest of us you do not make very good arguments (1-2,bob walker/hci) Gun laws in places like Washington DC are rendered (1-2,bob walker/hci) ineffective by the lack of a sound national policy on guns. (1-2,bob walker/hci) Most of the guns used in crime in DC come from othe (1-2,bob walker/hci) states. (1-52,Randy Burns) Too bad Nicole didn't have a gun with which to defend herself. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Craig, job 89, you are next. ga (1-34,Erik Stiegler) then why aren't the crime rates as high in the other states? (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) ?HCI (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Bob, HCI has already said it has no data showing the number of crimes committed with guns recently purchased. You told this to the (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) House Committee last year -- are you changing your story now? The fact is, nothing HCI supports can prevent criminals... (1-89,Craig) Thanks... Craig Peterson here... (1-89,Craig) Bob, with firearms being used approximately 70 to 1 to... (1-89,Craig) prevent crimes over commiting crimes, why are... (1-89,Craig) you attempting to disarm those who are protecting... (1-89,Craig) themselves and others against the true criminals... (1-43,Tim) ANSWER CATHY'S QUESTION (1-89,Craig) who you say you are trying to get off the street. (1-89,Craig) ga. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) from getting gunsa on the street, but what we support can get criminals off the street. That's one of the fundamental differences (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) between us. (1-26,JEFFREY BENNETT) if you were pointed with a gun by some criminal, and the (1-26,JEFFREY BENNETT) chances you being dead without a gun is 100% and my (1-26,JEFFREY BENNETT) chances are better at 50% cuz I gotta a gun! (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-The reason those laws are ineffective is because criminals totally ignore them, the same way they ignore the prohibition on drugs. (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) The ease with which criminals can obtain guns is not the (1-2,bob walker/hci) sole factor relating to crime, but it is a significant factor in (1-2,bob walker/hci) raising the morbidity and mortaility associated with crime. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, you now have the floor for Craig's question.ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (don't forget the ga when you're done) (1-2,bob walker/hci) What is Craig's question? ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-89,Craig) Thanks... Craig Peterson here... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-89,Craig) Bob, with firearms being used approximately 70 to 1 to... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-89,Craig) prevent crimes over commiting crimes, why are... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-89,Craig) you attempting to disarm those who are protecting... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-89,Craig) who you say you are trying to get off the street. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-89,Craig) ga. (1-21,RICHARD LOARIE) I'M PACBOBBOB DO YOU PCBOB DO YOU PACK DO YOU PACK BOB DO YOU PACK A GUN? (1-89,Craig) (A line was missing from the quote) (1-89,Craig) those who are protecting themselves and others. Why are you helping those who you say (1-89,Craig) ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Professor Gary Kleck has found that firearms are used for self-defense more thqan 2.1 million times annually. HCI seems to (1-55,Eugene Bernstein) ?HCI (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (After "protecting ... ": (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) overlook the number of crimes that are prevented through ready access to firearms by honest citizens..ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-89,Craig) themselves and others against the true criminals... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ) (1-2,bob walker/hci) Craig, the evidence does not support your assertion. A (1-2,bob walker/hci) number of studies have warned about the danger of a gun (1-2,bob walker/hci) in the home. But the real question is whether our laws (1-2,bob walker/hci) should make it easy for criminals to obtain handguns. (1-2,bob walker/hci) ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, Tanya also answered ... (1-52,Randy Burns) ?hci (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (a bit quick on the trigger) ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Next is Tony Ingenoso. ga, Tony. (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Since the arguably toughest gun control law in europe (the UK's) (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) has been a demonstrable failure in keeping guns from criminals (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) hands, why does Bob think he can make it work here? Colin (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Greenwood reports less than 50K legal handguns in the UK (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) today, but confiscation rates in London alone are running about (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) 12,500 per year. The confiscation rate since WWII averaged (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) about 5,500 per year. There's an INCREASING number of guns (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) making their way to criminals. The law seems a bust. GA. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Bob. After Bob, Tanya.ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) C'mon, Bob, none of the "studies" you cite hold up under scrutiny. They are full of miscountings of the positive usaes of (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) firearms, inflated counts of misuses, etc. Your favorite, the 43 -to - 1 is the worst, and maybe we should talk about it? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) With regards to the UK, how many people are killed with (1-2,bob walker/hci) guns in the UK compared to the US? ga (1-37,David Luther) I won't even consider giving up my rights to protect my family until (1-79,Phillip Trujillo) ?HCI ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ Author: listproc@gatekeeper.nra.org at CCLINK Date: 8/1/94 11:47 PM Priority: Normal TO: Bruce Gary at FH2 Subject: GET RKBA NRA-HCI-COMPUSERVE-DEBATE (4/7) ------------------------------- Message Contents ------------------------------- Archive RKBA, file nra-hci-compuserve-debate. Part 4/7, total size 10187 bytes: ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-China established gun control in 1935. In the period between 1948 & 1952 20 million political dissidents, unable to (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Whoa, whoa. ... (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) defend themselves, were rounded up & exterminated. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) How many in the U.K., about the same number as any other European country of comparanble size, including those with gun laws less (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) restrictive than many parts of the U.S. Tell the whole story on foreign countries, Bob. (1-2,bob walker/hci) Luther, HCI is not asking you to give up your gun, unless (1-2,bob walker/hci) you are a felon or other prohibited purchaser. ga. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, let's clear the floor a moment ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) you might be noticing how disjointed this all seems ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) and it's because we're not giving our guests a clean chance to talk ... (1-83,Brian J Brownsberge) It's already illegal for a felon to own a gun. ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) including to each other. ... (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Bob said he wanted to keep guns from the hands of criminals. (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) It's NOT happening in the UK - the confiscation numbers (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) confirm this! What IS happening, is that the UK criminals ARE (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) NOT *shooting* at the rate the US criminals do! THIS IS NOT (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) A FUNCTION OF THE GUN! (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) If you jump in without being recognized, you risk being ejected ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) now, TANYA has the floor to clear out any thoughts, then BOB, (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) and then we move on to the next question in the queue. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, TANYA. (1-58,MARCO L. FORCONE) ?HCI: The Bill of Rights is not a menu for people to pick and choose the ones they like. How can "the people" be interpreted (1-58,MARCO L. FORCONE) as "the state" in the Second Amendment, but not in the 1st, 4th, 5th, etc?? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) HCI doesn't say so, of course, but their ultimate goal is to deprive all Americans of firearms. The late Pete Shields, as Chair of (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) HCI stated to People Weekly that HCI supported the total banning of all Handguns. ga (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) ?HCI (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, BOB. (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) ?HCI (1-37,David Luther) until... its a level playing field (until I know the criminals don't have guns either). (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ?HCI (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya-> Give Bob a moment to response to your first point! (1-2,bob walker/hci) Tanya, I am Legislative Director for HCI and I am telling (1-2,bob walker/hci) you that we do not support a ban on handguns. Accept it. (1-2,bob walker/hci) ga. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya, ga. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Bob, when the historical record on the meaning of the Sec. Amend. is clear; when in U.S. v. Miller the Supreme Court recopgnized an (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) individual right to firearms; when the Bill of Rights is about nothing other tjhan protecting the rights of individuals (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) ?HCI (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) why do you persist with this alien concept of a soi-called "collective" right? By definition, rights cannot be "collective." (1-2,bob walker/hci) Tanya, how many guns laws have been struck down by (1-2,bob walker/hci) the Second Amendment. You say there are 20,000 gun (1-2,bob walker/hci) laws in this country. Which ones have been struck down? (1-44,Jerome Allison) [A (1-44,Jerome Allison) [B (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Bob, answer my question, if you can, and then we'kk move on to yours. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ?HCI (1-52,Randy Burns) ?HCI - Bob, if there are over 20,000 gun laws on the books... Why do we need (1-52,Randy Burns) another one?ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) Tanya, if the 2nd Amendment means what you say it (1-2,bob walker/hci) means, why are no gun laws ever overturned on the basis (1-2,bob walker/hci) of the 2nd Amendment? ga. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) While you are thinking, let me point out that we have 20,000 gun laws and crime is still high. You're waiting period has been in (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) effect in Calif. for decades, and the state's homicide rate is 44% higher than the rest of the U.S. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) ?HCI (1-60,Larry Harbison) ?HCI (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) I have Joseph E. Hart next on the list (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Joseph--you have the floor. (1-25,Joseph E. Hart) HCI - If the number of laws is increasing, why is the number of crimes not decreasing? (1-2,bob walker/hci) Sorry, folks, but I have to leave now. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) For the record, Bob still hasn't responded about tto my Second Amendment question. (1-25,Joseph E. Hart) What timing !!!! (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Since Bob says he doesn't want to "ban" guns, and doesn't (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) want to keep them from the hands of LAC's, can we expect to (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) see HCI calling for the gun ban provisions of the crime bill to (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) be removed? (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) Hey Tony, that was my question. (1-32,Scott A. Alexander/) Bob..If the 2nd is collective, I guess the right to (1-32,Scott A. Alexander/) peacefuly assemble, etc is collective. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Sorry Bob had to leave, guess he's running for the hills, or a history book, or maybe his waiting period expired. (1-14,William M. Perry) bye bob :) (1-4,Bruce Erickson) xD/users (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana is now ... (1-58,SCOTT W. MOON) Hello fellow NRA members. (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) in "first chair" for HCI. ... (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Did you get Joseph's question, Alana?ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) One moment. . . (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) HCI? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Alana, Bob departed without having answered my questions, and without giving me the chance to respond to his. Can you take over? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I'd be glad to. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Could you restate the question from Joseph, please? (Who is Alana - for the record?) (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-25,Joseph E. Hart) HCI - If the number of laws is increasing, why is the (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) number of crimes not decreasing? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Obviously, there are other causes of crime, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) than just the numbers of law. ;;[15] Sysop Joe Katz - Hi, Craig. Could you let the Sysops handle the conference? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Perhaps the laws aren't being enforced well enough, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) or perhaps they are aimed at the wrong categories of offenders. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) The "cooling off" period is aimed at offenders... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) who are acquainted with their potential victims. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Granted, this is a very discrete audience, but the law could (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) be worthwhile if it saved even a few lives. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) The "cooling off" period is aimed at everybody, not just offenders. (1-76,Christopher Brown) bye (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) The "if it saves just one life" argument could be used to support all sorts of infringements on out liberties (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) I have "WRB\VAHV" next ... (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) can you give us a name and then your question?ga (1-39,WRB\VAHV) Tanya, (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, on to gary fox. ga, gary. (1-39,WRB\VAHV) Why hasn't any gun law been overturned on 2nd amend. grounds? (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Ah, hold off, gary. (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Tanya, on WRB's question. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) The Supreme COurt haS NEVER BEEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNity to rule on the meaning of the Second Amendment. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tanya, (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) In the only case in which the question of an individual vs. "collective" right was even addressed at all (1-13,gary fox) Alana, do you and HCI have an implicit trust in government? If so, how (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) (U,S, v. Miller) the Court recognized the individual right. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I'd like to address Tanya's point about the Supreme Court cases. (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Are you finished, Tanya? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-13,gary fox) do you explain the interment of Japanese Americans dno (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Although I agree . . . (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) that the issue of the meaning of the second amendment... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) has never been squarely presented in a case before the supreme (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) court, the court has addressed the issue many times in dicta (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) in related cases. Although these opinions are not binding (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) authority, they do carry weight. (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya? ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Under various reasoning patterns, justices... (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (sorry) (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) have often said that the second amendment *would* not (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) require the overturning of state laws. Justices Douglas and (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) But I remind you of U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, (1990) in which the Court stated that the Sec. Amend. is like all the other rights (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) protected in the Constitution -- it is an individual right held by all people who comprise the "national community." (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Marshall, in a search and seizure case involving a concealed (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) weapon in Connecticut, came right out and said that in their (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) opinions, there is no constitutional barrier to a complete bar (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) on handguns. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Many "rights" ... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) recognized by the Supreme Court . . . (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) have been subject to burdens in their exercise. Few rights are (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) absolute. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Further, under Federal law (Title 10, Section 311, USC) the militia comprises all able-bodied males of age, other males, and some (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) females. And the historic meaning of "militia" is a body of citizens comprised of the whole people. ga ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ Author: listproc@gatekeeper.nra.org at CCLINK Date: 8/1/94 11:47 PM Priority: Normal TO: Bruce Gary at FH2 Subject: GET RKBA NRA-HCI-COMPUSERVE-DEBATE (5/7) ------------------------------- Message Contents ------------------------------- Archive RKBA, file nra-hci-compuserve-debate. Part 5/7, total size 10225 bytes: ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) If I could respond to that point, (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (ga, Alana--and Tanya, do wait for the ga) (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) it is also true that at the time of the ratification of the Constitution (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) one of the main concerns of the founders was the rights of the (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) states (as well as the rights of individuals). (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) The second amendment is easily read as a *states* rights (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) provision, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) recognizing the right of the states to protect themselves through (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) their militia. Now, however, the militia (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) First of all, we are not arguing an absolute riught buyt a fundamental right. Second, it is hardly surprising that there is a (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) hostility among certain jurists to common, ordinary -- yet law-abiuding people -- owning firearms. Not many years ago, jurists (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) remains only as the National Guard in its formal accountability (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) to State Governors. And many of the laws the second amendment (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) is being used to argue against are *state* laws. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) harbored hostility to the "novel" idea that people of different races be treated equally by their government. It took years, but (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) the people prevailed. Likewise with the right to keep and bear arms, it may take years, but hte people will prevail. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Anything else to add, Tanya, before we go to the (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) next question? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Third, the bill of rights deals with individual rights. We have grown accustomed to HCI folks quacking about the Second Amendment (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) being a guarantee to the states. In recent suits filed by (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) law enforcement oifficers against the Brady Act -- suits supported by NRA -- (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) we argued in part on Tenth Amendment grounds. Interestingly, HCI's voice, in a Washington Times article on the topic a few weeks (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ago, argued that the Tenth Amendment wasn't about states rights. H (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) HCI would have us believe that rights are not rights, people are not people, and arms could not possibly be arms. We disagree (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Joseph Jerzewski, you're up next. ga with your question. (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) ?HCI Alana, why do you think that Patrick Henry and the other founders stated that the "great Idea" was that all men be armed? ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tanya, are you finished? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) ?HCI (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Cathy, I don't have any idea... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) about the intentions of Patrick Henry, or the background (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) of the quote. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Go ahead, Tony. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Perpitch vs DOD established that the Guard is part of the (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) military. Based on this, the "militia" in the 2nd appears not to (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) be the Guard. GA (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) ?HCI (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tony, it seems that the guard is the closest thing that we have... (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Under federal law, the Guard is one part of the militia, along with the general citizenry, as noted earlier. But if the Guard is (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) federalized it becomes pART OF THE FEDERAL ARMY. THERE (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Therefore, the only group that can fill the Framers intention of a body capable of protecting liberty, is the armed citizenry.ga (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Joseph, ga. (1-24,Andy Hoehn) Hey User #55, what happened to Jon Zittrain/Wizop. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) in the modern United States to the meaning of the militia at the (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ratification of the second amendment. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) If the militia is not the National Guard, then it may have no real... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) meaning in today's Constitutional discourse. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) RE: "the guard being the closest thing". I think the residents (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) of Miami and LA would take exception to this. US law defines (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) the militia as also be those between 18-45, not in the (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) military(i.e. ME) GA (1-39,WRB\VAHV) ?NRA (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Apparently not everyone was seeing my text. Joseph is up with his question. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) It is interesting to note the historical uses of the term "well regulated militia." Machiavelli, (1520, The Art of war) and then (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) British Whig and Republican writers used the term. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ..to describe a bodyu of the whole people, with privately owneed weapons, led by opersons of their own xchoosing (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Patrick Hwenry, George Mason, and George Washington used the term in the same fashion. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, the floor goes to Ted Louis Glenn for a question. ga, Ted. (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) I would like to point out that some states, including Arizona, (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) ?HCI (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) define their militias to include all able-bodied males between the ages of 18 and 45 (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) while defining the National Guard as the "organized militia" (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) My question is: (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) If the second amendment is only about states' rights, then any federal (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Right, about the states. And 43 states have constitutional protectionsa of firearms rights.ga (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) gun control law aimed at the citizens of Arizona or other states with the same militia (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) definition must be invalid. (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) ?HCI (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana. ?(1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) After Alana, Tanya can go. HCI (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) If I understand, the question... (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) ?HCI (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) is implying that there might be an equal protection problem with... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) the scope of the second amendment's alleged protection? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Do I have it right? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) If that's the angle, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I think it's worth exploring. The militia as defined at the time (1-30,Rick Heise) All 10 of the Bill of Rights deal with individual rights, Why can't law-abiding citizens (1-30,Rick Heise) have the opportunity to own weapons so that the tyranical governments of the rest of (1-30,Rick Heise) the world be held under check? The United States is the only country that allowed (1-30,Rick Heise) citizens to openly own weapons to prevent the government from ever becoming a (1-30,Rick Heise) dictatorship. (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) Well, do you believe that the second amendment is only about states' righjts to the have a militia? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) of ratification in the federalist papers and other sources, did (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Let's get back to the history books. Nothing in the Bill of Rights protects a state's "right" to do anything, since states do not (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) have "rights" -- they have "powers." ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) refer to the body of able-bodied men between certain ages. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya?ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) In U.S. v. Cruikshank, in the late 1800s, the Supreme Court noted that all "rights" preexist government, and are not dependent on (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) government for their continued existence. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Therefore, the Second Amendment merely prtotectrs against encroachment by the national government a right which "the people" have (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) had for centuies. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) John B., you're up with a question. ga (1-34,Toni Savage/SYSOP) 's (1-82,John B.) "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual (1-82,John B.) discretion...in private self-defense... John Adams (1788) (1-82,John B.) Alana, while Bob denies that HCI seeks to "ban" all (1-82,John B.) handguns, do you deny that internal memoes within HCI (1-82,John B.) state the goal of eventually making all private gun (1-82,John B.) ownership virtually impossible by regulations banning one (1-82,John B.) category of guns at a time, licensing requirements that (1-82,John B.) are all but unavailable to the ordinary citizen, severe (1-82,John B.) taxation of guns and ammunition, product liability to (1-25,LEE EASLEY) can anyone join in here? (1-82,John B.) manufaturers resulting from criminal activity with guns? (1-82,John B.) This will result in private gun ownership only for the (1-82,John B.) privileged and politically connected. Do you deny this or (1-82,John B.) similar goals? (1-25,LEE EASLEY) ok (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) John . . . (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I think this is a good time for me to introduce myself before we (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) go any further. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Although I am arguing on behalf of HCI this evening, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I am not an employee of that organization. I am an attorney... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) who has studied and written on the second amendment, and (1-25,LEE EASLEY) okok (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) who has a personal interest in gun control laws and gun rights. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I have read the memo you are referring to, but I have no (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) knowledge as to whether or not it is genuine. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ?Alana Where have you been published? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I have read the memo in the NRA's... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) American Rifleman, and I have been told by employees of HCI (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) that it is not genuine. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tanya, for now - only here in the Crime Forum, where I am (1-5,Terry R. Farr) ?hci (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) currently associate sysop. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) One of my papers is in Library 15. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, we only have time for a few more questions ... ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ Author: listproc@gatekeeper.nra.org at CCLINK Date: 8/1/94 11:47 PM Priority: Normal TO: Bruce Gary at FH2 Subject: GET RKBA NRA-HCI-COMPUSERVE-DEBATE (6/7) ------------------------------- Message Contents ------------------------------- Archive RKBA, file nra-hci-compuserve-debate. Part 6/7, total size 10238 bytes: ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ (1-82,John B.) will HCI publically deny those goals, and if not, why not? (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Larry Harbison is next on my list ... (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Whether the "secret memo, allegedly HCI's is valid is not as important as the fact that they have overtly stated suppoprt for many (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) if not most of the restrictions contained in the memo. Their "Comprehensive National Gun Policy", which preceded (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Larry. (1-60,Larry Harbison) ?HCI... I sent a letter to Sarah Brady asking her to join NRA in its efforts to control (1-60,Larry Harbison) crime/criminals... also to verify or deny a quote attributed to her about not being (1-60,Larry Harbison) able to establish a Socialist Amerca until the resistance is unarmed. Since she has (1-60,Larry Harbison) not responded to my letter for two months now should we not assume that a Socialist (1-60,Larry Harbison) America is her agenda and it has nothing to do with crime control?ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) the introduction of the "Gun Violence Prevention Act" in Congress bears the most egregious of these proposals, and the GVPA, which (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) they support, is all too close in content to the "secret memo" they deny.ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana, though I don't know how much she can speak to that (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) question, Larry. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) As I have said, I cannot speak to the secret intentions of anyone. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) However, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I do think that it would move this debate forward... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) if we would talk about those things that HCI *openly* endorses... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) and can undeniably be held accountable for. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) ?HCI (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Anything to add, Tanya?ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (Note to all: the debate will be winding up at 10 ... (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) at which point any are welcome to stay on for informal discussion) (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Alana, let's talk about those things indeed. Special license for anyone who wants to buy a "part" of a handgun...special licenses (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) for anyone who has a gun collection, with police inspections of gun collectors' homes...huge taxes on firearms product (1-60,Larry Harbison) This "quote" was supposedly made during Mrs. Brady's lobbying of Sen. (1-60,Larry Harbison) Metzenbaum. Isn't that public? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) registration (which law enforcement groups actually oppose), etc.ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Well, (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana, then Joseph W. is up next.ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) the taxes on collectors clearly are not something that would... (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Coming back to implementation of "Gun Laws". Why should any logical person believe that a criminal (by definition a (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) person who has disregard for the law) would pay any heed to a gun law if he/she already is willing to take the risk of (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) using a gun in a greater crime ( i.e. Armed Robbery, Murder). As such are we not only dening gun to law abiding (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) citizens. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) come under an individual's right to use firearms in self-defense. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I think that, at that level, we may be within the federal (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) government's sweeping powers... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) to regulate general commerce. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) To address Joseph's question... (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana, want to answer Joseph's ?ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) those laws give prosecutors valuable tools to use against (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) criminals. Just because they have already violated one law, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) doesn't mean that they can't be charged with *both* crimes, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) and hopefully kept behind bars for even longer. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-19,Don B. Cely) ?Alana (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya, ga. (1-20,john halligan) ?jonis?jon zittrain (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Yes, but in the process you are denying others their rights. - Alana (1-5,Terry R. Farr) ?hci (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) To respond to Joseph, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) what rights? The right to use a firearm in the commission of a (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) crime? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Each year 60,000 felons are placed on probation instead of being sent to prison. The vast majority of violent crimes are (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) xcommitted by repeat offenders. States with the worst incarceration rates have seen the worst crime trends. Clearly, we must (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) The right to pruchase, easily obtain, and use the firearm for law abiding purposes ( hunting, target practice, (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) competition, etc. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) build additional prison space to confine these career criminals. But HCI would rather use honest (1-30,gary fox) ?hci (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) gun owners as the scapegoat for criminals' acts and use high crime rates as an excuse for depriving honest people of their right to (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) own a firearm. (1-12,ALEXANDER CUECUECH) Handgun Control Institute? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, the last question goes to Tony Ingenoso before we go informal ... (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Tony. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) I was almost carjacked in April. There were at least 3 perps. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) They fled when I pulled my PPK thank god. However, if (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) shooting had been required, the PPK's 7 shots of .380 are (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) distinctly underpowered against 3 assailants. How does a (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) high-capacity mag ban make me safer? After that incident I (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) bought a Beretta 84F (high-capacity) .380 to carry. GA (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana. Then Tanya. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tony, I think the answer is in the story you just told. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) As you mentioned, the gun which you legally owned, without (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) What we hope all concerned Americans will do is join NRA's effort to convince lawmakers at both the federal and state level to (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) support meaningful criminal justice reform measures. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) a high-capacity mag, was ample for the self-defense purpose (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) you needed. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Closing statement, Tanya? (1-10,Ed Berry) When guns are banned, only government agents will have (1-10,Ed Berry) guns. I'm not so much concerned about a criminal attack (1-10,Ed Berry) as I am about government predators and regulators getting (1-10,Ed Berry) control or our country. (1-24,Andy Hoehn) Alana? Will a 7 shot mag be ample next time? (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) You avoided my question. It was if shooting had been required. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Police shooting stats show officers with revolvers MISS 3 out (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) of 4 shots GA (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Thank you all very much for attending. I wish we had more time to answer your questions in more detail. I will post additional (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) information on the Crime Forum Library in (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) coming days. (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana, anything to add?ga (1-5,Terry R. Farr) Alana: That's a lot of attorny/speak hokum. Next week HCI'll only allow single shot's. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Thank you also for attending. (1-11,Peter N. Glaskowsky) Tanya, will you be sticking around? You may remember me, I was the sysop of the John Galt Line, one of the first few specifically (1-11,Peter N. Glaskowsky) pro-gun BBSs in the country, even back before the Bullet'N'Board. I'd just like to say hi. (1-19,Don B. Cely) Alana, I haven't really seen many responses in favor of HCI's position. Could this be because most citizen's are willing to accept (1-19,Don B. Cely) responsibility for the safe ownership and use of firearms, despite the attempts by some to deprive them of their rights? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Please call your congressman and Senators at 202-224-3121 and ask them to vote against the rule and the crime bill. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I think I'll rest on the arguments that've been presented all (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Thanks everyone ... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) evening, through the debate. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Goodbye. (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) you can stick around for informal discussion now ... (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) I hope you found it interesting even with all the logistical snafus ... (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Both NRA and HCI have promised to ... (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) fill our libraries, and we already (1-14,William M. Perry) thank you wiz/sysops (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) have some followup information there. (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) Question to everyone: Just wondering about the breakup of intersted individuals observing this forum. How many for NRA, HCI or uncommit (1-19,Don B. Cely) Thanks Sysops & all for hosting the debate! (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) uncomitted (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Thank you all for your patience! (1-89,Craig) I think HCI worked very hard to avoid answering the questions with solid responses. (1-89,Craig) NRA "won" on that point. (1-20,john halligan) ?wizo?jon zittrasinIs a transcript available of tonight's proceedongs (1-22,Dick Horner) NRA (1-24,Andy Hoehn) nra (1-5,Terry R. Farr) NRA (1-39,WRB\VAHV) HCI (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) NRA (1-7,Sue Biermann) NRA (1-38,James W. Keldsen) I'm for the NRA and our nation's constitution (1-8,Uwe M. Ross) NRA (1-46,charles r mccutcheo) c mccutcheon nra (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Yes, a transcript will soon be made available. (1-10,Ed Berry) NRA NRA (1-19,Don B. Cely) Tanya, I'm thinking of upping my Five Year membership to a lifetime. Thanks! (1-16,Betty Knight) Thanks to everyone. Good night and take care. (1-70,Jody Zorsch) NRA/pro-constitution/bill of rights (1-21,Leslie Kaun) NRA (1-14,William M. Perry) NRA (1-28,BOB MERTEN) Strongly supporting the NRA! (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) NRA/LEAA (1-9,JEFFREY BENNETT) power to the nra ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ Author: listproc@gatekeeper.nra.org at CCLINK Date: 8/1/94 11:47 PM Priority: Normal TO: Bruce Gary at FH2 Subject: GET RKBA NRA-HCI-COMPUSERVE-DEBATE (7/7) ------------------------------- Message Contents ------------------------------- Archive RKBA, file nra-hci-compuserve-debate. Part 7/7, total size 1609 bytes: ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) I thought tonights info was usefull, It was nice to see soo many pro-gun supporters speaking up. Perhaps this could be (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) used in the future are a means of expressing our opinions and wishes to our representatives. (1-27,Ken Dembeck) NRA (1-60,Larry Harbison) NRA (1-20,john halligan) I'm the NRA (1-34,Toni Savage/SYSOP) HCI (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Well, it seems close, but (1-67,Dominick) Remember WACO!!!!!!!!!!!!! (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Why did Bob scoot? Did he leave the faucet running? (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) my best guess is that the NRA is slightly favored. (1-70,Jody Zorsch) everyone remember to call congress this week on this bill.....How many of you (1-70,Jody Zorsch) have heard of HR4300? The next bill in anti--gun bill in congress? (1-38,James W. Keldsen) What is HR4300? (1-4,Bruce Erickson) [HCI had no useful answers. Lots of dancing and evasion. I don't trust them. (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) I find it interesting that almost everyone here appears to be pro-gun. Make sure you subscribe to the NRA's alerts - send help in(1-24,Andy Hoehn) Yes the NRA is "slightly" favored. About 15 to 1. the body of mail to listproc@NRA.org (1-40,Pat Panther) Almost everyone has common sense. (1-67,Dominick) I don't even own a gun, I'm pro liberty!! (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Overwhelmingly Pro-gun, despite the media's suggestion Crime Forum+Forum Menu 1 INSTRUCTIONS 2 MESSAGES 3 LIBRARIES (Files) 4 CONFERENCING (39 participating) 5 ANNOUNCEMENTS from sysop 6 MEMBER directory 7 OPTIONS for this forum Enter choice ! ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------ /* ============================================================ */ /* */ /* T H I S I S N O T A T R A N S C R I P T ! ! ! */ /* */ /* It is an *edited* compilation of remarks from the */ /* debate between NRA and HCI on Compuserve */ /* */ /* For definitive quotes, refer to the original transcript */ /* */ /* ============================================================ */ Archive RKBA, file nra-hci-compuserve-debate. [The following is the transcript of the "Debate" between NRA and HCI. This took place on CompuServe from 8 to 10pm on July 31st, 1994. News Flash: * THE GREAT DEBATE: NRA AND HCI DEBATE GUN CONTROL IN CRIME FORUM! * On Sunday, 31 July at 8 PM (EDT) you can join the Director of Federal Legislation of Handgun Control Inc. and the Executive Director of the National Rifle Association's Institute for Legislative action in a hard hitting gun control debate. They will present their organization's stances on gun control and the proposals before Congress, their future agendas, and the facts and figures that support their positions. You will have an opportunity to ask questions. Don't miss this chance to participate in an important event, one to talk about in the future. Entering Formal room... /* ============================================================ */ (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Still there, Tanya? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Well, I suspect that Tanya may have a bit more in the capture buffer ... but it seems to have gotten munged along the way. With the balance of her opening time reserved, Bob, you have the floor.ga /* ============================================================ */ (1-2,bob walker/hci) Gun voilence is on the rise. In 1991, more than 38,000 Americans were killed with firearms--in homicides, suicides, and accidents. Since, 1987, the rate for non-handgun murders has declined by 11 percent, while the rate of handgun homicides increased by 52 percent. Measures like the Brady Law and the recently passed assault weapons ban are reasonable responses to the growing epidemic of gun violence. The debate is not about banning guns, it's about reasonable,responsible measures that can save lives. ga. /* ============================================================ */ (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay ... we now move to our panel of questioners ... Alana Zielinski and Laura Quarantiello ... whom many of you will know from this forum ... Alana and Laura both have expertise on second amendment and gun control issues and ... among them have ten questions to ask each side ... each question will begin with one side ... for a brief answer, with a response by the other and then a final rebuttal from the first. Then on to the next question ... After that series, the floor will be open ... for questions at large ... that's when I'll start recording who is where in the "queue" ga, Alana, with the first question.ga /* ============================================================ */ (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana, go ahead with your first question to Bob (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Bob, What is HCI's stance... on the meaning of the second amendment of the U.S. Constitution? (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI believes in the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment given it by the federal courts i.e. that the right to bear arms is in connection with a well-regulated militia. ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Tanya. (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) In 1990, the Supreme Court confirmed in U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, that the right to keep and bear arms, like rights protected by the First, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments, is an individual right held by "the people," which the court defines as all "persons who are part of a national community." (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, last rebuttal?ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) The Court's interpretation of the second Amendment has never resulted in the overturning of any gun laws. The right is clearly connected to the requirements of a well-regulated militia. ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI did not write the 2nd Amendment. It is what the court's say it is. We do not support a ban on handguns, we simlply support measures that are designed to reduce gun violence. ga (1-47,Steve Hunnell) Bob: It's a good thing HCI didn't write the 2d Amendment, we'd be in some other type of dictatorship by now! /* ============================================================ */ (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, before we move to the next question Tanya still has the rest of her opening statement. ga, Tanya. (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) On Wed., the House of Reps. will take up the crime bill. This bill includes billions of dollars in social spending which includes midnight basketball, dance classes, and fingerpainting for drug addicts and HIV positive people. This bill should be defeated in both the House and the Senate. (1-68,Paul S./PA) Should, but probably won't be! (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) All done, Tanya? In fact, my readout says that Tanya has disappeared again conspiracy theorists will no doubt find that significant ... /* ============================================================ */ (1-91,John Aiello) why is HCI and others so afraid of common, law abiding citizens having the right to bear arms without some quaisi official "militia" organization overseeing their activities. No other rights in the Constition provide for an overseeing organization to make the right sanctioned. (1-43,Tom) Bob, how is keeping weapons from law- abiding citizens goung to stop crime? (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI is fighting to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, children and other prohibited purchasers, not out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. (1-50,Joseph P Southard) Handgun Control Inc are left wing fascists whose ultimate goal is to disarm America and control us as slaves to the state (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) I have to ask why Hangun Control or anyone else espousing gun control of any kind expects "criminals" (by definition people who break the law) to respect a law outlawing possession of guns when the criminal is willing to break a much greater law, such as murder or armed robbery. I suggest stiffer penalties for such crimes. /* ============================================================ */ (1-15,Laura Quarantiello/) Good evening! Bob, what does the Brady Bill do? What are the problems with the Bill and any possible benefits from it? ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) The Brady law has two purposes. First to ensure that anyone who buys a handgun from a gun store is legally entitled to own a handgun. Second to establish a waiting period or 'cooling off' period. ga (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) Sarah Brady has already stated that waiting periods do nothing to reduce crimes of passion, so "cooling off" is no long a issue, in HCI's mind, or didn't Bob know? (1-2,bob walker/hci) Sarah Brady has always said that waiting periods serve as a cooling off period. On one occasion she was misquoted and ever since then you have been misquoting her. ga (1-1,Charles A. Fulleton) How about ensuring the right of protecting our families? What does a cooling off period do for a person who NEEDS immediate protection? The police will not provide protection, they will however investigate your homicide. /* ============================================================ */ (1-42,Jerry J. Young) it is my opinion that gun toting rightists have some kind of penis envy copulated with an inadequicy with their sexual life. the gun seems to represent an extension of their (most likely) underdeveloped penis!!! (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) For those of you who don't know I have absolutely no penis envy, being a mother and a grandmother. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Hmm, that wasn't on our list of questions, but I suppose it's now on record. Alana, next question?ga /* ============================================================ */ (1-64,Tim Myers) Bob, when FBI stats show less than 1% of crimes with guns are commited with "assualt weapons" HCI comtinues to claim that they are a leading cause of death from guns. (1-2,bob walker/hci) FBI statistics do not show that less than 1 percent of crimes are committed with assault weapons. Over the last seven years, 8 percent of guns traced to crime were assault weapons. ga. (1-40,Pat Panther) Bob, gun traces are biased, even ATF admits that. (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) About "traces" -- both BATF and the Congressional Resaearch Service have stated that there is no way to determine if guns "traced" are actually those used in crimes. (1-64,Tim Myers) Your stats are wrong but given 8% is that cause to outlaw weapons enjoyed by millions? (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI supports stiffer sentencing of criminals, more police on the street and other anti-cirime measures, but we also see a need to keep criminals from getting guns. /* ============================================================ */ (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Proponents of stricter gun control laws often point to Britain's lower violent crime rate. Opponents point to Switzerland What is each of your organization's views on the underlying causes of gun violence, and does that view explain the difference between crime rates in the US and other countries? ga (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) The America and other countries comparison is a ruse -- many European countries with gun laws less restrictive than parts of the U.S. have crime rates lower than, or as low, as the European countries that have severe restrictions on gun rights.' (1-2,bob walker/hci) There is no other country in the world that suffers more from gun violence than the US, except for nations plagued by civil war. The level of gun violence in our society is closely linked to the ease with which criminals and juveniles can obtain firearms. (1-71,Harold Fisher) and the ease that criminals keep getting out of prison (1-68,Paul S./PA/NRA) There is also no other country like the USA. No other country has a Bill of Rights that gives protections to "The People" /* ============================================================ */ (1-43,Tom) Bob, I don't disagree with the Brady Bill, as intended, what I would like to know is why are all the import weapons being banned now ( I own several on the list) these are NOT handguns, these weapons are collector items, razors are used in violent crimes also, do we ban Bics? (1-87,Ron Pelfrey) What about the 40's 50's and 60's..it was easier to get a gun then and there was less crime. /* ============================================================ */ (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Please try to keep your questions brief, as well as individual lines so we're not all left hanging in suspense. Cathy Geisthardt, ga (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-What would you say to the Jews who surrended their firearms prior to being rounded up & marched to death camps?ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) What would you say to the 13,000 Americans who are killed every year with handguns? (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Stop committing suicides & fighting drug wars. (1-67,Dominick) That's not an answer Bob!!! (1-7,Larry Anderson) Bob: That's not answering Cathy's question!!! /* ============================================================ */ (1-91,John Aiello) ? HCI What is your defination of an assault weapon? (1-64,Tim Myers) HCI? HCI was also against class III weapons and successfully outlawed them even though no one was ever illegally killed by one. /* ============================================================ */ (1-26,Jim Switz) 1) What sense does a "cooling off" provision have to someone who already owns 1 or more guns? In Calif., I have to wait up to *16* days to pick up a firearm, and I own several. All of them can kill. I'm "cooled off" (1-2,bob walker/hci) I can cite you any number of incidents where individuals have murdered someone else very soon after buying a firearm. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Bob, HCI has already said it has no data showing the number of crimes committed with guns recently purchased. You told this to the House Committee last year -- are you changing your story now? The fact is, nothing HCI supports can prevent criminals from getting gunsa on the street, but what we support can get criminals off the street. That's one of the fundamental differences between us. (1-20,Joseph Gillis) There is absolutely no way in the world to keep criminals from getting guns. /* ============================================================ */ (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (please, PLEASE, let's not make this a free-for-all) (1-7,Larry Anderson) Sorry, Jon, but the free-for-all is more entertaining and thought- provoking then the debacle of the past hour /* ============================================================ */ (1-2,bob walker/hci) Why is the NRA opposing the crime bill, when it contains "3 Strikes and You're Out."? (1-94,KEITH A. ENGSTROM) bob you know why as well as the rest of us you do not make very good arguments (1-53,Scott Olson) Maybe because it contains so much other idiocy! (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) For years, NRA has been on record supporting stiffer sentences for criminals, tougher prosection, less parole, etc.., and we have yet to see any activity on these issues by HCI. How much did HCI spend in support of "3strikes, you're out" in Wash State in 1992? Or 1993? /* ============================================================ */ (1-72,Wayne Fugitt) Has HCI researched the benefit of our 20,000 plus Gun LAWS, and what they have done to control CRIME, especially in Washington, DC ? (done) ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) Gun laws in places like Washington DC are rendered ineffective by the lack of a sound national policy on guns. Most of the guns used in crime in DC come from other states. (1-34,Erik Stiegler) then why aren't the crime rates as high in the other states? (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-The reason those laws are ineffective is because criminals totally ignore them, the same way they ignore the prohibition on drugs. ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) The ease with which criminals can obtain guns is not the sole factor relating to crime, but it is a significant factor in raising the morbidity and mortaility associated with crime. /* ============================================================ */ (1-8,Rolf Nelson) If safty is the issue, what would HCI say about Ben Franklins quote, "Those that would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safty deserve neither"? (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. ga (1-49,John V. Urbancic) Bob, I guess we all can see your bias towards the jewish state. (1-43,Tim) ANSWER CATHY'S QUESTION (1-82,John B.) Someone murdered Nicole Simpson without a gun, and the police could not have prevented it. (1-52,Randy Burns) Too bad Nicole didn't have a gun with which to defend herself. (1-26,JEFFREY BENNETT) if you were pointed with a gun by some criminal, and the chances you being dead without a gun is 100% and my chances are better at 50% cuz I gotta a gun! (1-21,RICHARD LOARIE) I'M PACBOBBOB DO YOU PCBOB DO YOU PACK DO YOU PACK BOB DO YOU PACK A GUN? /* ============================================================ */ (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Craig, job 89, you are next. ga (1-89,Craig) Thanks... Craig Peterson here. Bob, with firearms being used approximately 70 to 1 to prevent crimes over commiting crimes, why are you attempting to disarm those who are protecting themselves and others against the true criminals who you say you are trying to get off the street. ga. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, you now have the floor for Craig's question.ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Professor Gary Kleck has found that firearms are used for self-defense more thqan 2.1 million times annually. HCI seems to overlook the number of crimes that are prevented through ready access to firearms by honest citizens..ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) Craig, the evidence does not support your assertion. A number of studies have warned about the danger of a gun in the home. But the real question is whether our laws should make it easy for criminals to obtain handguns. ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) C'mon, Bob, none of the "studies" you cite hold up under scrutiny. They are full of miscountings of the positive usaes of firearms, inflated counts of misuses, etc. Your favorite, the 43 - to - 1 is the worst, and maybe we should talk about it? ga /* ============================================================ */ (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, Tanya also answered (a bit quick on the trigger) Next is Tony Ingenoso. ga, Tony. (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Since the arguably toughest gun control law in europe (the UK's) has been a demonstrable failure in keeping guns from criminals hands, why does Bob think he can make it work here? Colin Greenwood reports less than 50K legal handguns in the UK today, but confiscation rates in London alone are running about 12,500 per year. The confiscation rate since WWII averaged about 5,500 per year. There's an INCREASING number of guns making their way to criminals. The law seems a bust. GA. (1-2,bob walker/hci) With regards to the UK, how many people are killed with guns in the UK compared to the US? ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) How many in the U.K., about the same number as any other European country of comparanble size, including those with gun laws less restrictive than many parts of the U.S. Tell the whole story on foreign countries, Bob. (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-China established gun control in 1935. In the period between 1948 & 1952 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up & exterminated. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Whoa, whoa. ... (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Bob said he wanted to keep guns from the hands of criminals. It's NOT happening in the UK - the confiscation numbers confirm this! What IS happening, is that the UK criminals ARE NOT *shooting* at the rate the US criminals do! THIS IS NOT A FUNCTION OF THE GUN! (1-37,David Luther) I won't even consider giving up my rights to protect my family until... its a level playing field (until I know the criminals don't have guns either). (1-2,bob walker/hci) Luther, HCI is not asking you to give up your gun, unless you are a felon or other prohibited purchaser. ga. (1-83,Brian J Brownsberge) It's already illegal for a felon to own a gun. ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) HCI doesn't say so, of course, but their ultimate goal is to deprive all Americans of firearms. The late Pete Shields, as Chair of HCI stated to People Weekly that HCI supported the total banning of all Handguns. ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya-> Give Bob a moment to response to your first point! (1-2,bob walker/hci) Tanya, I am Legislative Director for HCI and I am telling you that we do not support a ban on handguns. Accept it. ga. /* ============================================================ */ (1-58,MARCO L. FORCONE) ?HCI: The Bill of Rights is not a menu for people to pick and choose the ones they like. How can "the people" be interpreted as "the state" in the Second Amendment, but not in the 1st, 4th, 5th, etc?? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Bob, when the historical record on the meaning of the Sec. Amend. is clear; when in U.S. v. Miller the Supreme Court recopgnized an individual right to firearms; when the Bill of Rights is about nothing other tjhan protecting the rights of individuals why do you persist with this alien concept of a soi-called "collective" right? By definition, rights cannot be "collective." (1-2,bob walker/hci) Tanya, how many guns laws have been struck down by the Second Amendment. You say there are 20,000 gun laws in this country. Which ones have been struck down? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Bob, answer my question, if you can, and then we'kk move on to yours. (1-2,bob walker/hci) Tanya, if the 2nd Amendment means what you say it means, why are no gun laws ever overturned on the basis of the 2nd Amendment? ga. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) While you are thinking, let me point out that we have 20,000 gun laws and crime is still high. You're waiting period has been in effect in Calif. for decades, and the state's homicide rate is 44% higher than the rest of the U.S. /* ============================================================ */ (1-52,Randy Burns) ?HCI - Bob, if there are over 20,000 gun laws on the books... Why do we need another one?ga (1-25,Joseph E. Hart) HCI - If the number of laws is increasing, why is the number of crimes not decreasing? (1-2,bob walker/hci) Sorry, folks, but I have to leave now. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) For the record, Bob still hasn't responded about tto my Second Amendment question. (1-25,Joseph E. Hart) What timing !!!! (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Since Bob says he doesn't want to "ban" guns, and doesn't want to keep them from the hands of LAC's, can we expect to see HCI calling for the gun ban provisions of the crime bill to be removed? (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) Hey Tony, that was my question. (1-32,Scott A. Alexander/) Bob..If the 2nd is collective, I guess the right to peacefuly assemble, etc is collective. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Sorry Bob had to leave, guess he's running for the hills, or a history book, or maybe his waiting period expired. /* ============================================================ */ (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana is now in "first chair" for HCI. Did you get Joseph's question, Alana?ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Alana, Bob departed without having answered my questions, and without giving me the chance to respond to his. Can you take over? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I'd be glad to. Could you restate the question from Joseph, please? (Who is Alana - for the record?) (1-25,Joseph E. Hart) HCI - If the number of laws is increasing, why is the number of crimes not decreasing? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Obviously, there are other causes of crime, than just the numbers of law. Perhaps the laws aren't being enforced well enough, or perhaps they are aimed at the wrong categories of offenders. The "cooling off" period is aimed at offenders who are acquainted with their potential victims. Granted, this is a very discrete audience, but the law could be worthwhile if it saved even a few lives. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) The "cooling off" period is aimed at everybody, not just offenders. (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) The "if it saves just one life" argument could be used to support all sorts of infringements on out liberties /* ============================================================ */ (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) I have "WRB\VAHV" next ... can you give us a name and then your question?ga (1-39,WRB\VAHV) Tanya, Why hasn't any gun law been overturned on 2nd amend. grounds? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) The Supreme COurt haS NEVER BEEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNity to rule on the meaning of the Second Amendment. In the only case in which the question of an individual vs. "collective" right was even addressed at all (U,S, v. Miller) the Court recognized the individual right. ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I'd like to address Tanya's point about the Supreme Court cases. Are you finished, Tanya? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Although I agree that the issue of the meaning of the second amendment has never been squarely presented in a case before the supreme court, the court has addressed the issue many times in dicta in related cases. Although these opinions are not binding authority, they do carry weight. Under various reasoning patterns, justices have often said that the second amendment *would* not require the overturning of state laws. Justices Douglas and Marshall, in a search and seizure case involving a concealed weapon in Connecticut, came right out and said that in their opinions, there is no constitutional barrier to a complete bar on handguns. Many "rights" recognized by the Supreme Court have been subject to burdens in their exercise. Few rights are absolute. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) But I remind you of U.S. v. Verdugo- Urquidez, (1990) in which the Court stated that the Sec. Amend. is like all the other rights protected in the Constitution -- it is an individual right held by all people who comprise the "national community." Further, under Federal law (Title 10, Section 311, USC) the militia comprises all able-bodied males of age, other males, and some females. And the historic meaning of "militia" is a body of citizens comprised of the whole people. ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) If I could respond to that point, it is also true that at the time of the ratification of the Constitution one of the main concerns of the founders was the rights of the states (as well as the rights of individuals). The second amendment is easily read as a *states* rights provision, recognizing the right of the states to protect themselves through their militia. Now, however, the militia remains only as the National Guard in its formal accountability to State Governors. And many of the laws the second amendment is being used to argue against are *state* laws. ga (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Anything else to add, Tanya, before we go to the next question? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) First of all, we are not arguing an absolute riught buyt a fundamental right. Second, it is hardly surprising that there is a hostility among certain jurists to common, ordinary -- yet law-abiuding people -- owning firearms. Not many years ago, jurists harbored hostility to the "novel" idea that people of different races be treated equally by their government. It took years, but the people prevailed. Likewise with the right to keep and bear arms, it may take years, but hte people will prevail. Third, the bill of rights deals with individual rights. We have grown accustomed to HCI folks quacking about the Second Amendment being a guarantee to the states. In recent suits filed by law enforcement oifficers against the Brady Act -- suits supported by NRA -- we argued in part on Tenth Amendment grounds. Interestingly, HCI's voice, in a Washington Times article on the topic a few weeks ago, argued that the Tenth Amendment wasn't about states rights. HCI would have us believe that rights are not rights, people are not people, and arms could not possibly be arms. We disagree ga /* ============================================================ */ (1-13,gary fox) Alana, do you and HCI have an implicit trust in government? If so, how do you explain the interment of Japanese Americans dno /* ============================================================ */ (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) ?HCI Alana, why do you think that Patrick Henry and the other founders stated that the "great Idea" was that all men be armed? ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Cathy, I don't have any idea. about the intentions of Patrick Henry, or the background of the quote. Go ahead, Tony. /* ============================================================ */ (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Perpitch vs DOD established that the Guard is part of the military. Based on this, the "militia" in the 2nd appears not to be the Guard. GA (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tony, it seems that the guard is the closest thing that we have in the modern United States to the meaning of the militia at the ratification of the second amendment. If the militia is not the National Guard, then it may have no real meaning in today's Constitutional discourse. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Under federal law, the Guard is one part of the militia, along with the general citizenry, as noted earlier. But if the Guard is federalized it becomes pART OF THE FEDERAL ARMY. Therefore, the only group that can fill the Framers intention of a body capable of protecting liberty, is the armed citizenry.ga (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) RE: "the guard being the closest thing". I think the residents of Miami and LA would take exception to this. US law defines the militia as also be those between 18-45, not in the military(i.e. ME) GA (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) It is interesting to note the historical uses of the term "well regulated militia." Machiavelli, (1520, The Art of war) and then British Whig and Republican writers used the term. .to describe a bodyu of the whole people, with privately owneed weapons, led by opersons of their own xchoosing Patrick Hwenry, George Mason, and George Washington used the term in the same fashion. ga /* ============================================================ */ (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, the floor goes to Ted Louis Glenn for a question. ga, Ted. (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) I would like to point out that some states, including Arizona, define their militias to include all able- bodied males between the ages of 18 and 45 while defining the National Guard as the "organized militia" My question is: If the second amendment is only about states' rights, then any federal gun control law aimed at the citizens of Arizona or other states with the same militia definition must be invalid. HCI (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Right, about the states. And 43 states have constitutional protectionsa of firearms rights.ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) If I understand, the question is implying that there might be an equal protection problem with the scope of the second amendment's alleged protection? Do I have it right? If that's the angle, I think it's worth exploring. The militia as defined at the time of ratification in the federalist papers and other sources, did refer to the body of able-bodied men between certain ages. ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Let's get back to the history books. Nothing in the Bill of Rights protects a state's "right" to do anything, since states do not have "rights" -- they have "powers." ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) In U.S. v. Cruikshank, in the late 1800s, the Supreme Court noted that all "rights" preexist government, and are not dependent on government for their continued existence. Therefore, the Second Amendment merely prtotectrs against encroachment by the national government a right which "the people" have had for centuies. ga (1-30,Rick Heise) All 10 of the Bill of Rights deal with individual rights, Why can't law- abiding citizens have the opportunity to own weapons so that the tyranical governments of the rest of the world be held under check? The United States is the only country that allowed citizens to openly own weapons to prevent the government from ever becoming a dictatorship. (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) Well, do you believe that the second amendment is only about states' righjts to the have a militia? /* ============================================================ */ (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) John B., you're up with a question. ga (1-82,John B.) "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense... John Adams (1788) Alana, while Bob denies that HCI seeks to "ban" all handguns, do you deny that internal memoes within HCI state the goal of eventually making all private gun ownership virtually impossible by regulations banning one category of guns at a time, licensing requirements that are all but unavailable to the ordinary citizen, severe taxation of guns and ammunition, product liability to manufaturers resulting from criminal activity with guns? This will result in private gun ownership only for the privileged and politically connected. Do you deny this or similar goals? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) John . . . I think this is a good time for me to introduce myself before we go any further. Although I am arguing on behalf of HCI this evening, I am not an employee of that organization. I am an attorney who has studied and written on the second amendment, and who has a personal interest in gun control laws and gun rights. I have read the memo you are referring to, but I have no knowledge as to whether or not it is genuine. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I have read the memo in the NRA's American Rifleman, and I have been told by employees of HCI that it is not genuine. (1-82,John B.) will HCI publically deny those goals, and if not, why not? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Whether the "secret memo, allegedly HCI's is valid is not as important as the fact that they have overtly stated suppoprt for many if not most of the restrictions contained in the memo. Their "Comprehensive National Gun Policy", which preceded the introduction of the "Gun Violence Prevention Act" in Congress bears the most egregious of these proposals, and the GVPA, which they support, is all too close in content to the "secret memo" they deny.ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ?Alana Where have you been published? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tanya, for now - only here in the Crime Forum, where I am currently associate sysop. One of my papers is in Library 15. ga /* ============================================================ */ (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Larry Harbison is next on my list ... ga, Larry. (1-60,Larry Harbison) I sent a letter to Sarah Brady asking her to join NRA in its efforts to control crime/criminals... also to verify or deny a quote attributed to her about not being able to establish a Socialist Amerca until the resistance is unarmed. Since she has not responded to my letter for two months now should we not assume that a Socialist America is her agenda and it has nothing to do with crime control?ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana, though I don't know how much she can speak to that question, Larry. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) As I have said, I cannot speak to the secret intentions of anyone. However, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I do think that it would move this debate forward... if we would talk about those things that HCI *openly* endorses... and can undeniably be held accountable for. ga (1-60,Larry Harbison) This "quote" was supposedly made during Mrs. Brady's lobbying of Sen. Metzenbaum. Isn't that public? (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Anything to add, Tanya?ga (Note to all: the debate will be winding up at 10 at which point any are welcome to stay on for informal discussion) (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Alana, let's talk about those things indeed. Special license for anyone who wants to buy a "part" of a handgun...special licenses for anyone who has a gun collection, with police inspections of gun collectors' homes...huge taxes on firearms product registration (which law enforcement groups actually oppose), etc.ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana, then Joseph W. is up next.ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Well, the taxes on collectors clearly are not something that would come under an individual's right to use firearms in self-defense. I think that, at that level, we may be within the federal government's sweeping powers to regulate general commerce. ga /* ============================================================ */ (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Coming back to implementation of "Gun Laws". Why should any logical person believe that a criminal (by definition a person who has disregard for the law) would pay any heed to a gun law if he/she already is willing to take the risk of using a gun in a greater crime ( i.e. Armed Robbery, Murder). As such are we not only dening gun to law abiding citizens. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) To address Joseph's question... those laws give prosecutors valuable tools to use against criminals. Just because they have already violated one law, doesn't mean that they can't be charged with *both* crimes, and hopefully kept behind bars for even longer. ga (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Yes, but in the process you are denying others their rights. - Alana (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) To respond to Joseph, what rights? The right to use a firearm in the commission of a crime? ga (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) The right to pruchase, easily obtain, and use the firearm for law abiding purposes ( hunting, target practice, competition, etc. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Each year 60,000 felons are placed on probation instead of being sent to prison. The vast majority of violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders. States with the worst incarceration rates have seen the worst crime trends. Clearly, we must build additional prison space to confine these career criminals. But HCI would rather use honest gun owners as the scapegoat for criminals' acts and use high crime rates as an excuse for depriving honest people of their right to own a firearm. /* ============================================================ */ (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, the last question goes to Tony Ingenoso before we go informal ... ga, Tony. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) I was almost carjacked in April. There were at least 3 perps. They fled when I pulled my PPK thank god. However, if shooting had been required, the PPK's 7 shots of .380 are distinctly underpowered against 3 assailants. How does a high-capacity mag ban make me safer? After that incident I bought a Beretta 84F (high-capacity) .380 to carry. GA (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tony, I think the answer is in the story you just told. As you mentioned, the gun which you legally owned, without a high-capacity mag, was ample for the self-defense purpose you needed. ga (1-24,Andy Hoehn) Alana? Will a 7 shot mag be ample next time? (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) You avoided my question. It was if shooting had been required. Police shooting stats show officers with revolvers MISS 3 out of 4 shots GA (1-5,Terry R. Farr) Alana: That's a lot of attorny/speak hokum. Next week HCI'll only allow single shot's. /* ============================================================ */ (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Closing statement, Tanya? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) What we hope all concerned Americans will do is join NRA's effort to convince lawmakers at both the federal and state level to support meaningful criminal justice reform measures. Thank you all very much for attending. I wish we had more time to answer your questions in more detail. I will post additional information on the Crime Forum Library in coming days. (1-10,Ed Berry) When guns are banned, only government agents will have guns. I'm not so much concerned about a criminal attack as I am about government predators and regulators getting control or our country. (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana, anything to add?ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Thank you also for attending. /* ============================================================ */ (1-11,Peter N. Glaskowsky) Tanya, will you be sticking around? You may remember me, I was the sysop of the John Galt Line, one of the first few specifically pro-gun BBSs in the country, even back before the Bullet'N'Board. I'd just like to say hi. (1-19,Don B. Cely) Alana, I haven't really seen many responses in favor of HCI's position. Could this be because most citizen's are willing to accept responsibility for the safe ownership and use of firearms, despite the attempts by some to deprive them of their rights? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I think I'll rest on the arguments that've been presented all evening, through the debate. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Please call your congressman and Senators at 202-224-3121 and ask them to vote against the rule and the crime bill. (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Thanks everyone ... (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Goodbye. /* ============================================================ */ (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) you can stick around for informal discussion now ... (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) I hope you found it interesting even with all the logistical snafus ... Both NRA and HCI have promised to fill our libraries, and we already have some followup information there. Thank you all for your patience! (1-20,john halligan) ?wizo?jon zittrasinIs a transcript available of tonight's proceedongs (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Yes, a transcript will soon be made available. /* ============================================================ */ (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) Question to everyone: Just wondering about the breakup of intersted individuals observing this forum. How many for NRA, HCI or uncommit (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) uncomitted (1-39,WRB\VAHV) HCI (1-34,Toni Savage/SYSOP) HCI (1-27,Ken Dembeck) NRA (1-60,Larry Harbison) NRA (1-20,john halligan) I'm the NRA (1-22,Dick Horner) NRA (1-24,Andy Hoehn) nra (1-5,Terry R. Farr) NRA (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) NRA (1-7,Sue Biermann) NRA (1-38,James W. Keldsen) I'm for the NRA and our nation's constitution (1-8,Uwe M. Ross) NRA (1-46,charles r mccutcheo) nra (1-10,Ed Berry) NRA NRA (1-19,Don B. Cely) Tanya, I'm thinking of upping my Five Year membership to a lifetime. Thanks! (1-70,Jody Zorsch) NRA/pro-constitution/bill of rights (1-21,Leslie Kaun) NRA (1-14,William M. Perry) NRA (1-28,BOB MERTEN) Strongly supporting the NRA! (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) NRA/LEAA (1-9,JEFFREY BENNETT) power to the nra (1-67,Dominick) Remember WACO!!!!!!!!!!!!! (1-40,Pat Panther) Almost everyone has common sense. (1-67,Dominick) I don't even own a gun, I'm pro liberty!! /* ============================================================ */ (1-89,Craig) I think HCI worked very hard to avoid answering the questions with solid responses. NRA "won" on that point. (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) I thought tonights info was usefull, It was nice to see soo many pro-gun supporters speaking up. Perhaps this could be used in the future are a means of expressing our opinions and wishes to our representatives. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Why did Bob scoot? Did he leave the faucet running? (1-4,Bruce Erickson) [HCI had no useful answers. Lots of dancing and evasion. I don't trust them. (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Well, it seems close, but my best guess is that the NRA is slightly favored. (1-24,Andy Hoehn) Yes the NRA is "slightly" favored. About 15 to 1. the body of mail to listproc@NRA.org (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) I find it interesting that almost everyone here appears to be pro-gun. Make sure you subscribe to the NRA's alerts - send help in (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Overwhelmingly Pro-gun, despite the media's suggestion (1-70,Jody Zorsch) everyone remember to call congress this week on this bill.....How many of you have heard of HR4300? The next bill in anti--gun bill in congress? /* ============================================================ */ Crime Forum+Forum Menu From mwp@aloft.att.com Thu Aug 4 14:20:12 1994 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) with ESMTP id OAA08514 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 14:20:10 -0700 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.7/8.6.4) with SMTP id KAA14096 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 10:40:33 -0700 Received: from aloft.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA09711; Thu, 4 Aug 94 13:03:45 EDT From: mwp@aloft.att.com (Michael.W.Phillips) To: chan@shell.portal.com Received: from mahimahi by aloft (4.1/DCS-aloft-M3.1) id AA14223; Thu, 4 Aug 94 13:04:02 EDT Received: by mahimahi (4.1/DCS-aloft_client-S2.1) id AA05398; Thu, 4 Aug 94 13:03:59 EDT Date: Thu, 4 Aug 94 13:03:59 EDT Original-From: aloft!mwp (Michael.W.Phillips) Message-Id: <9408041703.AA05398@mahimahi> Original-To: att!shell.portal.com!chan Status: R Entering Formal room... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Still there, Tanya? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Well, I suspect that Tanya may have a bit (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) more in the capture buffer ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) but it seems to have gotten munged along the way. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) With the balance of her opening time reserved, (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, you have the floor.ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) Gun voilence is on the rise. In 1991, more than 38,000 (1-2,bob walker/hci) Americans were killed with firearms--in homicides, (1-2,bob walker/hci) suicides, and accidents. Since, 1987, the rate for (1-2,bob walker/hci) non-handgun murders has declined by 11 percent, while (1-2,bob walker/hci) the rate of handgun homicides increased by 52 percent. (1-2,bob walker/hci) Measures like the Brady Law and the recently passed (1-2,bob walker/hci) assault weapons ban are reasonable responses to the (1-2,bob walker/hci) growing epidemic of gun violence. The debate is not (1-2,bob walker/hci) about banning guns, it's about reasonable,responsible (1-2,bob walker/hci) measures that can save lives. ga. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) we now move to our panel of questioners ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana Zielinski and Laura Quarantiello ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) whom many of you will know from this forum ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana and Laura both have expertise on second amendment and (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) gun control issues and ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) among them have ten questions to ask each side ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) each question will begin with one side ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) for a brief answer, with a response by the other (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) and then a final (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) rebuttal from the first. Then on to the next question ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) After that series, the floor will be open ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) for questions at large ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) that's when I'll start recording who is where in the "queue" (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana, with the first question.ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Jon, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I just spoke with Tanya Metaksa, who will be (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) right back online in (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) a moment with her opening statement. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Ah, okay. We'll wait for that. ... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) In the meantime, I'd like to ask Mr. Walker what his (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Jon, should I ask a general question in the meantime? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana, go ahead with your first question to Bob (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Bob, What is HCI's stance... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) on the meaning of the second amendment of the U.S. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Constitution? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Bob (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI believes in the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (1-2,bob walker/hci) given it by the federal courts i.e. that the right to bear (1-2,bob walker/hci) arms is in connection with a well-regulated militia. ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Did you catch Bob's answer just now, Tanya? ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) perhaps you can answer his point and we can roll up this (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) question before you try your opneing again.ga (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) I didn't get the question. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Bob, What is HCI's stance... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) on the meaning of the (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) second amendment of the U.S. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Constitution? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) And Bob's answer: (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI believes in the (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-2,bob walker/hci) interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) E(1-2,bob walker/hci) given it by the federal courts (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) E(1-2,bob walker/hci) i.e. that the right to bear (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-2,bob walker/hci) arms is in connection with (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (1-2,bob walker/hci) a well-regulated militia. ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Tanya. (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) In 1990, the Supreme Court confirmed in U.S. (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) v. Verdugo-Urquidez, that the right to keep and bear (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) arms, like rights protected by (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) the First, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments, (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) is an individual right (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) held by "the people," which the court defines as all (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) "persons who are part of a national community." (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, last rebuttal?ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) The Court's interpretation of the second Amendment has (1-2,bob walker/hci) never resulted in the overturning of any gun laws. The (1-2,bob walker/hci) right is clearly connected to the requirements of a (1-2,bob walker/hci) well-regulated militia. ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, before we move to the next question ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya still has the rest of her opening (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) statement. ga, Tanya. (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) On Wed., the House of Reps. will take up the crime bill. (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) This bill includes billions of dollars in social (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) spending which includes midnight basketball, dance (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) classes, and fingerpainting for (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) drug addicts and HIV positive people. (1-1,Tanya Metaksa) This bill should be defeated in both the House and the Senate. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) All done, Tanya? (1-91,John Aiello) why is HCI and others so afraid of common, (1-91,John Aiello) law abiding citizens having the right to (1-91,John Aiello) bear arms without some quaisi official (1-91,John Aiello) "militia" organization overseeing their activities. (1-91,John Aiello) No other rights in the Constition provide for (1-91,John Aiello) an overseeing organization to make the (1-91,John Aiello) right sanctioned. (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI did not write the 2nd Amendment. It is what the (1-2,bob walker/hci) court's say it is. We do not support a ban on handguns, (1-2,bob walker/hci) we simlply support measures that are designed to reduce (1-2,bob walker/hci) gun violence. ga (1-43,Tom) Bob, how is keeping weapons from law-abiding citizens (1-43,Tom) goung to stop crime? (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI is fighting to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, (1-2,bob walker/hci) children and other prohibited purchasers, not out of the (1-2,bob walker/hci) hands of law-abiding citizens. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) In the meantime, Laura, ga with the next question ... (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) I have to ask why Hangun Control or anyone else (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) espousing gun control of any kind expects (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) "criminals" (by definition (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) people who break the law) to respect a law (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) outlawing possession of guns when the criminal (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) is willing to break a much (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) greater law, such as murder or armed robbery. (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) I suggest stiffer penalties for such crimes. (1-2,bob walker/hci) The Brady law has two purposes. First to ensure that (1-2,bob walker/hci) anyone who buys a handgun from a gun store is legally (1-2,bob walker/hci) entitled to own a handgun. Second to establish a waiting (1-2,bob walker/hci) period or 'cooling off' period. (1-2,bob walker/hci) ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya, response?ga (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) Sarah Brady has already stated that waiting periods (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) do nothing to reduce crimes of passion, (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) so "cooling off" is no long a issue, in (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) HCI's mind, or didn't Bob know? (1-42,Jerry J. Young) it is my opinion that gun toting rightists have some kind of (1-42,Jerry J. Young) penis envy copulated with an inadequicy with their sexual (1-42,Jerry J. Young) life. the gun seems to represent an extension of their (most (1-42,Jerry J. Young) likely) underdeveloped penis!!! (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) For those of you who don't know I have absolutely (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) no penis envy, being a mother and a grandmother. (1-1,Charles A. Fulleton) How about ensuring the right of protecting our families? (1-1,Charles A. Fulleton) What does a cooling off period do for a person who (1-1,Charles A. Fulleton) NEEDS immediate protection? The police will not provide (1-1,Charles A. Fulleton) protection, they will however investigate your homicide. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, final response? ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) Sarah Brady has always said that waiting periods serve as (1-2,bob walker/hci) a cooling off period. On one occasion she was misquoted (1-2,bob walker/hci) and ever since then you have been misquoting her. ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) FBI statistics do not show that less than 1 percent of (1-2,bob walker/hci) crimes are committed with assault weapons. Over the last (1-2,bob walker/hci) seven years, 8 percent of guns traced to crime were (1-2,bob walker/hci) assault weapons. ga. (1-64,Tim Myers) Bob, when FBI stats show less than 1% of crimes (1-64,Tim Myers) with guns are commited with (1-64,Tim Myers) "assualt weapons" HCI comtinues to claim that they are (1-64,Tim Myers) a leading cause of death (1-64,Tim Myers) from guns. (1-40,Pat Panther) Bob, gun traces are biased, even ATF admits that. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Proponents of stricter gun control laws often (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) point to Britain's... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) lower violent crime rate. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Opponents point to Switzerland.... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) What is each of your organization's views on the... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) underlying causes of gun violence, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) and does that view explain... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) the difference between crime rates in the US (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) and other countries? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, take it first, then Tanya. ga (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) About "traces" -- both BATF and the Congressional (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) Resaearch Service have stated that there is no way (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) to determine if guns "traced" (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) are actually those used in crimes. The America (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) and other countries comparison is a ruse -- (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) many European countries with... (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) gun laws less restrictive than parts of the U.S. (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) have crime rates lower than, or as low, as the (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) European countries that have severe (1-51,Tanya Metaksa) restrictions on gun rights.' (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Is that all, Tanya? (1-43,Tom) Bob, I don't disagree with the Brady Bill, as intended, what (1-43,Tom) I would like to know is why are all the import weapons (1-43,Tom) being banned now ( I own several on the list) these are (1-43,Tom) NOT handguns, these weapons are collector items, razors (1-43,Tom) are used in violent crimes also, do we ban Bics? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Bob, ga. (1-2,bob walker/hci) There is no other country in the world that suffers more (1-2,bob walker/hci) from gun violence than the US, except for nations plagued (1-2,bob walker/hci) by civil war. (1-89,Craig) Does that prove something? (1-68,Paul S./PA/NRA) There is also no other country like the USA. No other (1-68,Paul S./PA/NRA) country has a Bill of Rights that gives protections to "The (1-68,Paul S./PA/NRA) People" (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) before we do, let me try to lay out how we'll do it ... (1-2,bob walker/hci) The level of gun violence in our society is closely linked (1-2,bob walker/hci) to the ease with which criminals and juveniles can obtain (1-2,bob walker/hci) firearms. (1-87,Ron Pelfrey) What about the 40's 50's and 60's..it was easier to (1-87,Ron Pelfrey) get a gun then and there was le (1-87,Ron Pelfrey) less crime. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, let's move on to the next phase ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga from me before you ... (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) actually enter your question. (1-2,bob walker/hci) HCI supports stiffer sentencing of criminals, more police (1-2,bob walker/hci) on the street and other anti-cirime measures, but we also (1-2,bob walker/hci) see a need to keep criminals from getting guns. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Please try to keep your questions brief, as (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) well as individual lines so we're not all (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) left hanging in suspense. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Cathy Geisthardt, ga (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-What would you say to the Jews who surrended (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) surrended their firearms prior to being rounded up (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) & marched to death camps?ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) What would you say to the 13,000 Americans who are (1-2,bob walker/hci) killed every year with handguns? (1-67,Dominick) That's not an answer Bob!!! (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-Stop committing suicides & fighting drug wars. (1-7,Larry Anderson) Bob: That's not answering Cathy's question!!! (1-26,Jim Switz) 1) What sense does a "cooling off" provision have to (1-26,Jim Switz) 1) someone who already owns 1 or more guns? In Calif., (1-26,Jim Switz) 1) I have to wait up to *16* days to pick (1-26,Jim Switz) 1) up a firearm, and I own several. All of them can kill. (1-26,Jim Switz) 1) I'm "cooled off" (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya, anything to add? ga (1-64,Tim Myers) HCI? HCI was also against class III (1-64,Tim Myers) weapons and successfully outlawed them even (1-64,Tim Myers) though no one was ever illegally killed by one. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) For years, NRA has been on record supporting (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) stiffer sentences for criminals, tougher prosection, (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) less parole, etc.., and we have (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) yet to see any activity on these issues by HCI. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) How much did HCI spend in support of "3strikes, (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) you're out" in Wash... (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) State in 1992? Or 1993? (1-2,bob walker/hci) I can cite you any number of incidents where individuals (1-2,bob walker/hci) have murdered someone else very soon after buying a (1-2,bob walker/hci) firearm. (1-20,Joseph Gillis) There is absolutely no way in the world to (1-20,Joseph Gillis) keep criminals from getting guns. (1-72,Wayne Fugitt) Has HCI researched the benefit of our 20,000 plus (1-72,Wayne Fugitt) Gun LAWS, and what they have done to control CRIME, (1-72,Wayne Fugitt) especially in Washington, DC ? (done) ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) Why is the NRA opposing the crime bill, when it contains (1-2,bob walker/hci) "3 Strikes and You're Out."? (1-53,Scott Olson) Maybe because it contains so much other idiocy! (1-8,Rolf Nelson) If safty is the issue, what would HCI say about (1-8,Rolf Nelson) Ben Franklins quote, "Those that would (1-8,Rolf Nelson) sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safty deserve neither"? (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. ga (1-82,John B.) Someone murdered Nicole Simpson without a gun, and the (1-82,John B.) police could not have prevented it. (1-49,John V. Urbancic) Bob, I guess we all can (1-49,John V. Urbancic) see your bias towards the jewish state. (1-94,KEITH A. ENGSTROM) bob you know why as well as the rest of us (1-94,KEITH A. ENGSTROM) you do not make very good arguments (1-2,bob walker/hci) Gun laws in places like Washington DC are rendered (1-2,bob walker/hci) ineffective by the lack of a sound national policy on guns. (1-2,bob walker/hci) Most of the guns used in crime in DC come from othe (1-2,bob walker/hci) states. (1-34,Erik Stiegler) then why aren't the crime rates as high in the other states? (1-52,Randy Burns) Too bad Nicole didn't have a gun with which to defend herself. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Bob, HCI has already said it has no data showing the (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) number of crimes committed with guns recently purchased. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) You told this to the (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) House Committee last year -- are you changing your story (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) now? The fact is, nothing HCI supports can prevent criminals... (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) from getting gunsa on the street, but what we support (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) can get criminals off the street. That's one of (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) the fundamental differences (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) between us. (1-43,Tim) ANSWER CATHY'S QUESTION (1-26,JEFFREY BENNETT) if you were pointed with a gun by some criminal, and the (1-26,JEFFREY BENNETT) chances you being dead without a gun is 100% and my (1-26,JEFFREY BENNETT) chances are better at 50% cuz I gotta a gun! (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-The reason those laws are ineffective is (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) because criminals totally ignore them, the same (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) way they ignore the prohibition on drugs. (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) The ease with which criminals can obtain guns is not the (1-2,bob walker/hci) sole factor relating to crime, but it is a significant factor in (1-2,bob walker/hci) raising the morbidity and mortaility associated with crime. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Professor Gary Kleck has found that firearms are (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) used for self-defense more thqan 2.1 million times (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) annually. HCI seems to (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) overlook the number of crimes that are prevented (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) through ready access to firearms by honest citizens..ga (1-21,RICHARD LOARIE) I'M PACBOBBOB DO YOU PCBOB DO YOU PACK (1-21,RICHARD LOARIE) DO YOU PACK DO YOU PACK BOB DO YOU PACK A GUN? (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Craig, job 89, you are next. ga (1-89,Craig) Bob, with firearms being used approximately 70 to 1 to... (1-89,Craig) prevent crimes over commiting crimes, why are... (1-89,Craig) you attempting to disarm those who are protecting... (1-89,Craig) themselves and others against the true criminals... (1-89,Craig) who you say you are trying to get off the street. (1-89,Craig) ga. (1-2,bob walker/hci) Craig, the evidence does not support your assertion. A (1-2,bob walker/hci) number of studies have warned about the danger of a gun (1-2,bob walker/hci) in the home. But the real question is whether our laws (1-2,bob walker/hci) should make it easy for criminals to obtain handguns. (1-2,bob walker/hci) ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) C'mon, Bob, none of the "studies" you cite hold up (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) under scrutiny. They are full of miscountings of the (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) positive usaes of (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) firearms, inflated counts of misuses, etc. Your favorite, (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) the 43 -to - 1 is the worst, and maybe we should talk about it? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Next is Tony Ingenoso. ga, Tony. (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Since the arguably toughest gun control law in (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) europe (the UK's) (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) has been a demonstrable failure in keeping (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) guns from criminals (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) hands, why does Bob think he can make it work here? Colin (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Greenwood reports less than 50K legal handguns in the UK (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) today, but confiscation rates in London alone (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) are running about (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) 12,500 per year. The confiscation rate since WWII averaged (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) about 5,500 per year. There's an INCREASING number of guns (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) making their way to criminals. The law seems a bust. GA. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Bob. After Bob, Tanya.ga (1-2,bob walker/hci) With regards to the UK, how many people are killed with (1-2,bob walker/hci) guns in the UK compared to the US? ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) How many in the U.K., about the same number as any (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) other European country of comparanble size, including (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) those with gun laws less (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) restrictive than many parts of the U.S. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Tell the whole story on foreign countries, Bob. (1-37,David Luther) I won't even consider giving up my rights to (1-37,David Luther) protect my family until (1-37,David Luther) until... its a level playing field (until I know (1-37,David Luther) the criminals don't have guns either). (1-2,bob walker/hci) Luther, HCI is not asking you to give up your gun, unless (1-2,bob walker/hci) you are a felon or other prohibited purchaser. ga. (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) Bob-China established gun control in 1935. (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) In the period between 1948 & 1952 20 million (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) political dissidents, unable to (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) defend themselves, were rounded up & exterminated. (1-83,Brian J Brownsberge) It's already illegal for a felon to own a gun. ga (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Bob said he wanted to keep guns (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) from the hands of criminals. (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) It's NOT happening in the UK - the confiscation numbers (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) confirm this! What IS happening, is that (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) the UK criminals ARE (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) NOT *shooting* at the rate the (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) US criminals do! THIS IS NOT (1-38,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) A FUNCTION OF THE GUN! (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, TANYA. (1-58,MARCO L. FORCONE) ?HCI: The Bill of Rights is not a menu for people to (1-58,MARCO L. FORCONE) pick and choose the ones they like. How can "the (1-58,MARCO L. FORCONE) people" be interpreted (1-58,MARCO L. FORCONE) as "the state" in the Second Amendment, but (1-58,MARCO L. FORCONE) not in the 1st, 4th, 5th, etc?? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) HCI doesn't say so, of course, but their ultimate goal (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) is to deprive all Americans of firearms. The late (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Pete Shields, as Chair of (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) HCI stated to People Weekly that HCI supported the (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) the total banning of all Handguns. ga (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, BOB. (1-2,bob walker/hci) Tanya, I am Legislative Director for HCI and I am telling (1-2,bob walker/hci) you that we do not support a ban on handguns. Accept it. (1-2,bob walker/hci) ga. (1-45,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya, ga. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Bob, when the historical record on the meaning of the (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Sec. Amend. is clear; when in U.S. v. Miller the (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Supreme Court recopgnized an (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) individual right to firearms; when the Bill of Rights (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) is about nothing other tjhan protecting the rights of individuals (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) why do you persist with this alien concept of a (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) soi-called "collective" right? By definition, rights (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) cannot be "collective." (1-2,bob walker/hci) Tanya, how many guns laws have been struck down by (1-2,bob walker/hci) the Second Amendment. You say there are 20,000 gun (1-2,bob walker/hci) laws in this country. Which ones have been struck down? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Bob, answer my question, if you can, and then we'kk (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) move on to yours. (1-2,bob walker/hci) Tanya, if the 2nd Amendment means what you say it (1-2,bob walker/hci) means, why are no gun laws ever overturned on the basis (1-2,bob walker/hci) of the 2nd Amendment? ga. (1-52,Randy Burns) ?HCI - Bob, if there are over 20,000 gun laws on the (1-52,Randy Burns) books... Why do we need (1-52,Randy Burns) another one?ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) While you are thinking, let me point out that we have (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) 20,000 gun laws and crime is still high. You're (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) waiting period has been in (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) effect in Calif. for decades, and the state's homicide (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) rate is 44% higher than the rest of the U.S. (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Joseph--you have the floor. (1-25,Joseph E. Hart) HCI - If the number of laws is increasing, why is (1-25,Joseph E. Hart) the number of crimes not decreasing? (1-2,bob walker/hci) Sorry, folks, but I have to leave now. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) For the record, Bob still hasn't responded about (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) my Second Amendment question. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Since Bob says he doesn't want to "ban" guns, and doesn't (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) want to keep them from the hands of LAC's, can we expect to (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) see HCI calling for the gun ban provisions (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) of the crime bill to (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) be removed? (1-32,Scott A. Alexander/) Bob..If the 2nd is collective, I guess the right to (1-32,Scott A. Alexander/) peacefuly assemble, etc is collective. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Sorry Bob had to leave, guess he's running for the hills, (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) or a history book, or maybe his waiting period expired. (1-14,William M. Perry) bye bob :) (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana is now ... (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) in "first chair" for HCI. ... (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Did you get Joseph's question, Alana?ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) One moment. . . (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Alana, Bob departed without having answered my questions, (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) and without giving me the chance to respond to his. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Can you take over? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I'd be glad to. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Could you restate the question from Joseph, please? (1-25,Joseph E. Hart) HCI - If the number of laws is increasing, why is (1-25,Joseph E. Hart) the number of crimes not decreasing? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Obviously, there are other causes of crime, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) than just the numbers of law. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Perhaps the laws aren't being enforced well enough, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) or perhaps they are aimed at the wrong (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) categories of offenders. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) The "cooling off" period is aimed at offenders... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) who are acquainted with their potential victims. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Granted, this is a very discrete audience, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) but the law could (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) be worthwhile if it saved even a few lives. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) The "cooling off" period is aimed at everybody, (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) not just offenders. (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) The "if it saves just one life" argument could (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) be used to support all sorts of infringements on out liberties (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) I have "WRB\VAHV" next ... (1-39,WRB\VAHV) Tanya, (1-39,WRB\VAHV) Why hasn't any gun law been overturned on 2nd amend. grounds? (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, on to gary fox. ga, gary. (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Ah, hold off, gary. (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Tanya, on WRB's question. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) The Supreme COurt haS NEVER BEEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNity (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) to rule on the meaning of the Second Amendment. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) In the only case in which the question of an individual (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) vs. "collective" right was even addressed at all (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) (U,S, v. Miller) the Court recognized the individual right. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tanya, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I'd like to address Tanya's point about the (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Supreme Court cases. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Are you finished, Tanya? (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) that the issue of the meaning of the second amendment... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) has never been squarely presented in a case (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) case before the supreme (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) court, the court has addressed the issue many times in dicta (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) in related cases. Although these opinions are not binding (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) authority, they do carry weight. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Although I agree . . . (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Under various reasoning patterns, justices... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) have often said that the second amendment *would* not (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) require the overturning of state laws. Justices Douglas and (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Marshall, in a search and seizure case involving a concealed (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) weapon in Connecticut, came right out and said that in their (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) opinions, there is no constitutional barrier (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) to a complete bar (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) on handguns. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Many "rights" ... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) recognized by the Supreme Court . . . (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) have been subject to burdens in their exercise. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Few rights are (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) absolute. (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya? ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) But I remind you of U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, (1990) (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) in which the Court stated that the Sec. Amend. is like (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) all the other rights (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) protected in the Constitution -- it is an (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) individual right held by all people who comprise (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) the "national community." (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Further, under Federal law (Title 10, Section 311, USC) (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) the militia comprises all able-bodied males of age, (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) other males, and some (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) females. And the historic meaning of "militia" is a (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) a body of citizens comprised of the whole people. ga (1-13,gary fox) Alana, do you and HCI have an implicit trust (1-13,gary fox) in government? If so, how (1-13,gary fox) do you explain the interment of Japanese Americans dno (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) If I could respond to that point, (1-55,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (ga, Alana--and Tanya, do wait for the ga) (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) It is also true that at the time of the ratification (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) of the Constitution (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) one of the main concerns of the founders was (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) the rights of the (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) states (as well as the rights of individuals). (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) The second amendment is easily read as a *states* rights (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) provision, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) recognizing the right of the states to (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) protect themselves through (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) their militia. Now, however, the militia (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) remains only as the National Guard in (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) its formal accountability (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) to State Governors. And many of the laws (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) the second amendment (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) is being used to argue against are *state* laws. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) First of all, we are not arguing an absolute riught (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) but a fundamental right. Second, it is hardly surprising (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) that there is a (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) hostility among certain jurists to common, ordinary (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) -- yet law-abiuding people -- owning firearms. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Not many years ago, jurists (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) harbored hostility to the "novel" idea that people of (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) different races be treated equally by their government. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) It took years, but (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) the people prevailed. Likewise with the right to keep (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) and bear arms, it may take years, but hte people will prevail. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Third, the bill of rights deals with individual rights. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) We have grown accustomed to HCI folks quacking about (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) the Second Amendment (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) being a guarantee to the states. In recent suits filed by (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) law enforcement oifficers against the Brady Act -- (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) suits supported by NRA -- (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) we argued in part on Tenth Amendment grounds. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Interestingly, HCI's voice, in a Washington Times (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) article on the topic a few weeks (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ago, argued that the Tenth Amendment wasn't (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) about states rights. H (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) HCI would have us believe that rights are not rights, (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) people are not people, and arms could not possibly be (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) arms. We disagree (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tanya, are you finished? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) ?HCI Alana, why do you think that Patrick Henry and (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) the other founders stated that the "great Idea" was (1-35,Cathy Geisthardt) that all men be armed? ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Cathy, I don't have any idea... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) about the intentions of Patrick Henry, or the background (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) of the quote. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Go ahead, Tony. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Perpitch vs DOD established that the Guard is part of the (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) military. Based on this, the "militia" in the 2nd (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) appears not to (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) be the Guard. GA (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tony, it seems that the guard is the closest (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) thing that we have... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) in the modern United States to the meaning of (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) the militia at the (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ratification of the second amendment. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) If the militia is not the National Guard, then it may (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) have no real... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) meaning in today's Constitutional discourse. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Under federal law, the Guard is one part of the militia, (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) along with the general citizenry, as noted earlier. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) But if the Guard is (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) federalized it becomes pART OF THE FEDERAL ARMY. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Therefore, the only group that can fill the Framers (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) intention of a body capable of protecting liberty, is (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) the armed citizenry.ga (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) RE: "the guard being the closest thing". I (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) think the residents (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) of Miami and LA would take exception to this. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) US law defines (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) the militia as also be those between 18-45, not in the (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) military(i.e. ME) GA (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) It is interesting to note the historical uses of the term (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) "well regulated militia." Machiavelli, (1520, (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) The Art of war) and then (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) British Whig and Republican writers used the term. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ..to describe a bodyu of the whole people, with (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) privately owneed weapons, led by opersons of their own xchoosing (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Patrick Hwenry, George Mason, and George Washington (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) used the term in the same fashion. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, the floor goes to Ted Louis Glenn for a question. (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Ted. (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) I would like to point out that some states, including Arizona, (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) define their militias to include all able-bodied (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) males between the ages of 18 and 45 (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) while defining the National Guard as the "organized militia" (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) My question is: (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) If the second amendment is only about states' rights, (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) then any federal (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) gun control law aimed at the citizens of Arizona or (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) other states with the same militia (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) definition must be invalid. (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Right, about the states. And 43 (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) states have constitutional protectionsa of firearms rights.ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) If I understand, the question... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) is implying that there might be an equal (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) protection problem with... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) the scope of the second amendment's alleged protection? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Do I have it right? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) If that's the angle, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I think it's worth exploring. The militia as (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) defined at the time (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) of ratification in the federalist papers and (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) other sources, did (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) refer to the body of able-bodied men between certain ages. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-30,Rick Heise) All 10 of the Bill of Rights deal with individual rights, (1-30,Rick Heise) Why can't law-abiding citizens (1-30,Rick Heise) have the opportunity to own weapons so (1-30,Rick Heise) that the tyranical governments of the rest of (1-30,Rick Heise) the world be held under check? The United States (1-30,Rick Heise) is the only country that allowed (1-30,Rick Heise) citizens to openly own weapons to prevent the (1-30,Rick Heise) government from ever becoming a (1-30,Rick Heise) dictatorship. (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) Well, do you believe that the second amendment is (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) only about states' righjts to the have a militia? (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya?ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Let's get back to the history books. Nothing in the (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Bill of Rights protects a state's "right" to do (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) anything, since states do not (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) have "rights" -- they have "powers." ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) In U.S. v. Cruikshank, in the late 1800s, the (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Supreme Court noted that all "rights" preexist (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) government, and are not dependent on (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) government for their continued existence. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Therefore, the Second Amendment merely prtotectrs (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) against encroachment by the national government (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) a right which "the people" have (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) had for centuies. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) John B., you're up with a question. ga (1-82,John B.) "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual (1-82,John B.) discretion...in private self-defense... John Adams (1788) (1-82,John B.) Alana, while Bob denies that HCI seeks to "ban" all (1-82,John B.) handguns, do you deny that internal memoes within HCI (1-82,John B.) state the goal of eventually making all private gun (1-82,John B.) ownership virtually impossible by regulations banning one (1-82,John B.) category of guns at a time, licensing requirements that (1-82,John B.) are all but unavailable to the ordinary citizen, severe (1-82,John B.) taxation of guns and ammunition, product liability to (1-82,John B.) manufaturers resulting from criminal activity with guns? (1-82,John B.) This will result in private gun ownership only for the (1-82,John B.) privileged and politically connected. Do you deny this or (1-82,John B.) similar goals? (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) John . . . (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I think this is a good time for me to (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) introduce myself before we (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) go any further. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Although I am arguing on behalf of HCI this evening, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I am not an employee of (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) that organization. I am an attorney... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) who has studied and written on the second amendment, and (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) who has a personal interest in gun control laws (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) and gun rights. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I have read the memo you are referring to, but I have no (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) knowledge as to whether or not it is genuine. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I have read the memo in the NRA's... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) American Rifleman, and I have been told by employees of HCI (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) that it is not genuine. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tanya, for now - only here in the Crime Forum, where I am (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) currently associate sysop. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) One of my papers is in Library 15. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ?Alana Where have you been published? (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, we only have time for a few more questions ... (1-82,John B.) will HCI publically deny those goals, and if not, why not? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Whether the "secret memo, allegedly HCI's is valid (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) is not as important as the fact that they (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) have overtly stated suppoprt for many (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) if not most of the restrictions contained in the (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) memo. Their "Comprehensive National Gun Policy", which preceded (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) the introduction of the "Gun Violence Prevention Act" (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) in Congress bears the most egregious of (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) these proposals, and the GVPA, which (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) they support, is all too close in content to the (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) "secret memo" they deny.ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Larry Harbison is next on my list ... (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Larry. (1-60,Larry Harbison) ?HCI... I sent a letter to Sarah Brady asking her to (1-60,Larry Harbison) join NRA in its efforts to control (1-60,Larry Harbison) crime/criminals... also to verify or deny a (1-60,Larry Harbison) quote attributed to her about not being (1-60,Larry Harbison) able to establish a Socialist Amerca until the (1-60,Larry Harbison) resistance is unarmed. Since she has (1-60,Larry Harbison) not responded to my letter for two months (1-60,Larry Harbison) now should we not assume that a Socialist (1-60,Larry Harbison) America is her agenda and it has nothing to (1-60,Larry Harbison) do with crime control?ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana, though I don't know how much she (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) can speak to that (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) question, Larry. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) As I have said, I cannot speak to the (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) secret intentions of anyone. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) However, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I do think that it would move this debate forward... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) if we would talk about those things that (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) HCI *openly* endorses... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) and can undeniably be held accountable for. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-60,Larry Harbison) This "quote" was supposedly made during Mrs. (1-60,Larry Harbison) Brady's lobbying of Sen. (1-60,Larry Harbison) Metzenbaum. Isn't that public? (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Anything to add, Tanya?ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) (Note to all: the debate will be winding up at 10 ... (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) at which point any are welcome to stay (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) for informal discussion) (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Alana, let's talk about those things indeed. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Special license for anyone who wants to buy a (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) "part" of a handgun...special licenses (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) for anyone who has a gun collection, with police (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) inspections of gun collectors' homes...huge taxes (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) on firearms product (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) registration (which law enforcement groups (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) actually oppose), etc.ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana, then Joseph W. is up next.ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Well, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) the taxes on collectors clearly are not (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) something that would... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) come under an individual's right to use (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) firearms in self-defense. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I think that, at that level, we may be within the federal (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) government's sweeping powers... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) to regulate general commerce. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Coming back to implementation of "Gun Laws". (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Why should any logical person believe that a (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) criminal (by definition a (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) person who has disregard for the law) would pay (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) any heed to a gun law if he/she already is (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) willing to take the risk of (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) using a gun in a greater crime ( i.e. Armed (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Robbery, Murder). As such are we not only (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) dening gun to law abiding (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) citizens. (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana, want to answer Joseph's ?ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) To address Joseph's question... (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) those laws give prosecutors valuable tools to use against (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) criminals. Just because they have already violated one law, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) doesn't mean that they can't be charged with *both* crimes, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) and hopefully kept behind bars for even longer. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Yes, but in the process you are denying others (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) their rights. - Alana (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) To respond to Joseph, (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) what rights? The right to use a firearm (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) in the commission of a (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) crime? (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Tanya, ga. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Each year 60,000 felons are placed on probation instead (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) of being sent to prison. The vast majority (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) of violent crimes are (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) xcommitted by repeat offenders. States with (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) the worst incarceration rates have seen the worst (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) crime trends. Clearly, we must (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) build additional prison space to confine these (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) career criminals. But HCI would rather use honest (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) gun owners as the scapegoat for criminals' acts and (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) use high crime rates as an excuse for depriving honest (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) people of their right to (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) own a firearm. (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) The right to pruchase, easily obtain, and use (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) the firearm for law abiding purposes (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) ( hunting, target practice, (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) competition, etc. (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Okay, the last question goes to Tony (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Ingenoso before we go informal ... (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Tony. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) I was almost carjacked in April. There were (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) at least 3 perps. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) They fled when I pulled my PPK thank god. However, if (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) shooting had been required, the PPK's 7 shots of .380 are (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) distinctly underpowered against 3 assailants. How does a (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) high-capacity mag ban make me safer? After that incident I (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) bought a Beretta 84F (high-capacity) .380 to carry. GA (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) ga, Alana. Then Tanya. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Tony, I think the answer is in the story you just told. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) As you mentioned, the gun which you legally owned, without (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) a high-capacity mag, was ample for the self-defense purpose (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) you needed. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) ga (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) You avoided my question. It was (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) if shooting had been required. (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Police shooting stats show officers with (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) revolvers MISS 3 out (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) of 4 shots GA (1-24,Andy Hoehn) Alana? Will a 7 shot mag be ample next time? (1-5,Terry R. Farr) Alana: That's a lot of attorny/speak hokum. Next (1-5,Terry R. Farr) week HCI'll only allow single shot's. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) What we hope all concerned Americans will do is join (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) NRA's effort to convince lawmakers at both the federal (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) and state level to (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) support meaningful criminal justice reform measures. (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Closing statement, Tanya? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Thank you all very much for attending. I wish we (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) had more time to answer your questions in more detail. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) I will post additional (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) information on the Crime Forum Library in (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) coming days. (1-10,Ed Berry) When guns are banned, only government agents will have (1-10,Ed Berry) guns. I'm not so much concerned about a criminal attack (1-10,Ed Berry) as I am about government predators and regulators getting (1-10,Ed Berry) control or our country. (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Alana, anything to add?ga (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) Thank you also for attending. (1-11,Peter N. Glaskowsky) Tanya, will you be sticking around? You (1-11,Peter N. Glaskowsky) may remember me, I was the sysop of the John (1-11,Peter N. Glaskowsky) Galt Line, one of the first few specifically (1-11,Peter N. Glaskowsky) pro-gun BBSs in the country, even back before (1-11,Peter N. Glaskowsky) the Bullet'N'Board. I'd just like to say hi. (1-19,Don B. Cely) Alana, I haven't really seen many responses in favor of (1-19,Don B. Cely) HCI's position. Could this be because most citizen's (1-19,Don B. Cely) are willing to accept (1-19,Don B. Cely) responsibility for the safe ownership and use of (1-19,Don B. Cely) firearms, despite the attempts by some to deprive them (1-19,Don B. Cely) of their rights? (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Please call your congressman and Senators at (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) 202-224-3121 and ask them to vote against the (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) rule and the crime bill. (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) I think I'll rest on the arguments that've (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) been presented all (1-3,Alana Zielinski/Sys) evening, through the debate. (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Thanks everyone ... (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) Goodbye. (1-47,Tanya Metaksa) ga (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) you can stick around for informal discussion now ... (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) I hope you found it interesting even with (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) all the logistical snafus ... (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Both NRA and HCI have promised to ... (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) fill our libraries, and we already (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) have some followup information there. (1-14,William M. Perry) thank you wiz/sysops (1-19,Don B. Cely) Thanks Sysops & all for hosting the debate! (1-89,Craig) I think HCI worked very hard to avoid answering the (1-89,Craig) questions with solid responses. (1-89,Craig) NRA "won" on that point. (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) Question to everyone: Just wondering about the (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) breakup of intersted individuals observing this (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) forum. How many for NRA, HCI or uncommit (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) uncomitted (1-39,WRB\VAHV) HCI (1-34,Toni Savage/SYSOP) HCI (1-22,Dick Horner) NRA (1-24,Andy Hoehn) nra (1-5,Terry R. Farr) NRA (1-2,Ted Louis Glenn) NRA (1-7,Sue Biermann) NRA (1-38,James W. Keldsen) I'm for the NRA and our nation's constitution (1-8,Uwe M. Ross) NRA (1-46,charles r mccutcheo) c mccutcheon nra (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) NRA/LEAA (1-10,Ed Berry) NRA (1-28,BOB MERTEN) Strongly supporting the NRA! (1-21,Leslie Kaun) NRA (1-9,JEFFREY BENNETT) power to the nra (1-14,William M. Perry) NRA (1-27,Ken Dembeck) NRA (1-60,Larry Harbison) NRA (1-20,john halligan) I'm the NRA (1-70,Jody Zorsch) NRA/pro-constitution/bill of rights (1-19,Don B. Cely) Tanya, I'm thinking of upping my Five Year membership (1-19,Don B. Cely) to a lifetime. Thanks! (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Thank you all for your patience! (1-20,john halligan) ?wizo?jon zittrasinIs a transcript available (1-20,john halligan) of tonight's proceedongs (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Yes, a transcript will soon be made available. (1-16,Betty Knight) Thanks to everyone. Good night and take care. (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) I thought tonights info was usefull, It was nice (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) to see soo many pro-gun supporters speaking up. (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Perhaps this could be (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) used in the future are a means of expressing (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) our opinions and wishes to our representatives. (1-67,Dominick) Remember WACO!!!!!!!!!!!!! (1-51,Tony Ingenoso/LEAA) Why did Bob scoot? Did he leave the faucet running? (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) Well, it seems close, but (1-1,Jon Zittrain/Wizop) my best guess is that the NRA is slightly favored. (1-24,Andy Hoehn) Yes the NRA is "slightly" favored. About 15 to 1. (1-40,Pat Panther) Almost everyone has common sense. (1-70,Jody Zorsch) everyone remember to call congress this week on (1-70,Jody Zorsch) this bill.....How many of you (1-70,Jody Zorsch) have heard of HR4300? The next bill in anti--gun (1-70,Jody Zorsch) bill in congress? (1-38,James W. Keldsen) What is HR4300? (1-4,Bruce Erickson) [HCI had no useful answers. Lots of dancing and (1-4,Bruce Erickson) evasion. I don't trust them. (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) I find it interesting that almost everyone here (1-78,Adam B. Plourde/RI) appears to be pro-gun. (1-67,Dominick) I don't even own a gun, I'm pro liberty!! (1-23,Joseph W. Jerzewski) Overwhelmingly Pro-gun, despite the media's suggestion Make sure you subscribe to the NRA's alerts - send help in the body of mail to listproc@NRA.org